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Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"]

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On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Russ P. <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 8:44:11 AM UTC-7, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
>> Yes, but the problem is not "my approach", rather the lack
>>
>> of proper language design (my apologizes to the "anointed
>>
>> one". ;-)
>
> If you don't like implicit conversion to Boolean, then maybe you should be using another language -- and I mean that in a constructive sense. I'm not particularly fond of it either, but I switched from Python to another language a while back. The issue is not a lack of "proper language design" but rather a language design philosophy that values conciseness and simplicity over explicitness and rigor.

(Out of curiosity, which language? Feel free to not answer, or to
answer off-list, as that's probably not constructive to the thread.)

I cannot name a single modern programming language that does NOT have
some kind of implicit boolification. The only such language I know of
is REXX, which has a single data type for everything, but insists on
the exact strings "1" and "0" for True and False, anything else is an
error. Every other language has some definition of "these things are
true, these are false"; for instance:

* C-family languages treat all nonzero integers as true
* Shells treat 0 as "success" and nonzero as "error", and therefore as
"true" and "false" respectively (yes, this IS an inversion)
* Pike allows any variable to contain the integer 0, regardless of its
declared type, and thus is a sort of "null" value which is false; all
strings, arrays, mappings, etc are true
* Python treats an empty "thing" as false and a nonempty one as true

SQL is like REXX in that it's fairly strict; a condition must be a
boolean (example from PostgreSQL):

rosuav=> select 1+2 where 1;
ERROR:  argument of WHERE must be type boolean, not type integer
LINE 1: select 1+2 where 1;
                         ^

But an explicit conversion is permitted:

rosuav=> select 1+2 where cast (5 as boolean);
 ?column?
----------
        3
(1 row)


> It's all loosey goosey -- which is fine for many applications but certainly not for critical ones.

The looseness doesn't preclude critical applications. It's all a
question of what you're testing. Does your code care that this be a
list, and not something else? Then test! You have that option. What
happens if it isn't a list, and something is done that bombs with an
exception? Maybe that's not a problem.

Critical applications can often be built in layers. For instance, a
network server might listen for multiple socket connections, and for
each connection, process multiple requests. You would want to catch
exceptions at the two boundaries there; if a request handler crashes,
the connection should not be dropped, and if a connection handler
crashes, the server should keep running. With some basic defenses like
that, your code need no longer concern itself with trivialities - if
something goes wrong, there'll be an exception in the log. (BTW, this
is one of the places where a bare or very wide except clause is
appropriate. Log and move on.)

ChrisA

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PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 10:04 -0700
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:20 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-02 17:49 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:18 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-02 16:45 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:49 -0600
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 17:17 +1000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-06-03 08:01 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:09 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 19:03 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:21 +1000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:23 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:29 -0700
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-04 14:35 +0100
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:03 +0000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 12:30 -0500
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:34 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 18:58 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:28 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 18:37 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:16 +0200
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 20:53 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 04:30 +0000
      Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 05:39 +0000
        Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 08:44 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:00 +1000
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:19 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:27 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:28 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:31 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-04 13:25 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:09 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 18:31 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:10 +0100
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 13:32 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 11:42 -0600
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 16:21 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 00:37 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:28 -0600
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:15 +1000
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:47 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:26 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 09:59 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 09:15 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 14:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:56 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:29 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 21:25 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0600
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 09:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:12 +0300
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:35 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:41 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:08 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:27 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:44 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:53 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:44 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 22:01 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-07 02:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:14 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:30 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:43 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:08 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:00 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-06 17:32 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:37 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 07:09 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:26 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:36 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:46 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-05 12:10 -0400
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:18 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 16:52 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 19:20 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:39 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:55 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:30 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 20:16 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 03:10 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:23 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:20 +0000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:52 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 13:37 +1000
        Python Heisenbugs?  (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:34 +0000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:05 +1000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:06 -0400
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-03 09:49 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-06-03 08:56 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 12:02 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:12 -0600
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:09 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-03 20:31 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:44 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:10 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:11 -0400

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