Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print")

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From	Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com>
Date	2013-06-03 03:06 -0400
Subject	Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print")
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.2583.1370243205.3114.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 13:37:27 +1000, Tim Delaney wrote:
>
>> With the increase in use of higher-level languages, these days
>> Heisenbugs most often appear with multithreaded code that doesn't
>> properly protect critical sections, but as you say, with lower-level
>> languages uninitialised memory is a common source of them.
>
> Aside from an I/O caching bug directly affected by calling print or
> somefile.write (where somefile is stdout), how else could I create a
> Heisenbug in pure Python?

The garbage collector can do this, but I think in practice it's
ridiculously rare, since __del__ is almost never useful due to its
unreliability*. The problem is that the garbage collector can do
whatever it wants. For example, in CPython it is called after so many
cycles have been created. This allows code and user actions to
inadvertently affect the garbage collector, and therefore, the
invocation of __del__.

If your __del__ does anything that accesses mutable global state also
used elsewhere, it's conceivable that the order of someone else's
access and __del__'s invocation depends on the GC. One order or the
other might be the wrong one which causes a failure. As it happens,
the "bt" command in pdb creates a cycle and might trigger the garbage
collector, causing __del__ to run immediately, and potentially hiding
the failure.

This isn't really "pure python" in that Python doesn't even guarantee
__del__ is ever called at all, let alone why. It's completely
implementation-specific, and not a property of Python the language.

-- Devin

.. [*] Some people use it as an "unreliable fallback"; this turns
their magical autosaving code into an attractive and yet horribly
dangerous nuisance. Friends don't let friends use __del__.

Thread

PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 10:04 -0700
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:20 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-02 17:49 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:18 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-02 16:45 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:49 -0600
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 17:17 +1000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-06-03 08:01 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:09 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 19:03 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:21 +1000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:23 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:29 -0700
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-04 14:35 +0100
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:03 +0000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 12:30 -0500
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:34 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 18:58 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:28 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 18:37 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:16 +0200
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 20:53 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 04:30 +0000
      Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 05:39 +0000
        Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 08:44 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:00 +1000
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:19 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:27 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:28 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:31 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-04 13:25 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:09 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 18:31 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:10 +0100
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 13:32 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 11:42 -0600
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 16:21 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 00:37 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:28 -0600
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:15 +1000
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:47 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:26 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 09:59 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 09:15 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 14:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:56 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:29 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 21:25 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0600
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 09:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:12 +0300
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:35 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:41 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:08 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:27 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:44 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:53 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:44 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 22:01 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-07 02:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:14 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:30 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:43 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:08 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:00 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-06 17:32 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:37 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 07:09 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:26 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:36 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:46 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-05 12:10 -0400
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:18 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 16:52 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 19:20 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:39 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:55 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:30 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 20:16 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 03:10 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:23 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:20 +0000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:52 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 13:37 +1000
        Python Heisenbugs?  (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:34 +0000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:05 +1000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:06 -0400
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-03 09:49 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-06-03 08:56 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 12:02 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:12 -0600
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:09 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-03 20:31 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:44 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:10 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:11 -0400

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