Re: Future standard GUI library

References	(7 earlier) <20130527172250.a8b0ce44f29398d63a4ec650@gmx.net> <mailman.2258.1369674988.3114.python-list@python.org> <20130530184045.6d15530be70e18d96e5654ad@gmx.net> <mailman.2430.1369932803.3114.python-list@python.org> <20130601201817.55d3361dda93dac387a9eab6@gmx.net>
Date	2013-06-02 06:46 +1000
Subject	Re: Future standard GUI library
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.2529.1370119566.3114.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > A GUI that can not be used without taking the ten fingers off the
>> > keyboard is indeed entirely unusable for any half-proficient
>> > screenworker. And anyone doing actual productive screenwork every
>> > day for more than just a few months will inevitably (have to) get
>> > proficient (unless completely braindead).
>>
>> My ten fingers stay on my keyboard, which looks somewhat thus:
>>
>> http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/mobile/lenovo-thinkpad-t61/keyboard.jpg
>>
>> See the red dot in the middle? Mouse.
>
> I didn't mean "trackpoints" or similar devices, but full keyboard
> "navigation" of the entire GUI through shortcuts etc.
>
> A "touch-type" GUI is a "must have" for any application that's supposed
> to be used productively. The mouse is nice to "explore" a GUI or for
> occasional/leisurely use, but once you use an application daily to earn
> your living, it's a hopeless roadblock for productivity.

You have seriously underestimated the power of the combined
keyboard+mouse interface. I absolutely agree that keyboard-only will
(almost) always beat mouse-only, but keyboard AND mouse together can
beat either alone, if the UI is designed correctly.

Case in point: Partial staging of a file in git. I can use 'git add
-p' or 'git gui'. With the former, it's all keyboard; I can step
through the hunks, choose what to stage, move on. With the latter,
it's more visual; I right-click a hunk and choose "Stage this hunk"
(or "Stage this line", which is actually quite fiddly with 'git add
-p').

I am a self-confessed keyboard junkie. I will use the keyboard for
pretty much everything. Yet I use git gui and almost never git add -p,
the one exception being when I can't use git gui (eg it's not
installed on some remote headless system and installing it would
require fetching gobs of GUI libraries). It uses the mouse to good
result.

> As is the "response time" behaviour of "web applications".

On a LAN, with a proper back-end, I can get instant response from a
web app. Obviously over the internet there's latency, but that's
nothing to do with the use of a web browser as a UI; you'll see that
with ssh just as much.

> "No cursor animation ever" is an absolute "must have" requirement for
> productivity applications.

Not really. There are times when the human will be legitimately
waiting for the computer. http://xkcd.com/303/ for one. But this still
has little to do with the use of a web browser UI; I can achieve
exactly that with the Yosemite Project, which can actually be a
three-computer system: the content is stored on one, the HTTP server
is on another, and the web browser is separate again. And this is only
a 100Mbit LAN. If you need moar speeeeeeed, you can always demand
gigabit or better.

>> THIS is a professional programmer's workspace. :)
>
> And by "screenworkers" I didn't refer to programmers. Those people
> rarely have to use the stuff that they implement.

Of course not, programmers never use software they've themselves
written. Never. Not in a million... oh wait, what's this I have? Hmm,
gcc used to compile gcc, RosMud being used by Rosuav, Neil Hodgson
using SciTE... naw, they're all statistical anomalies, carry on!

You really have a very low opinion of programmers for someone on a
programming mailing list :)

ChrisA

Thread

Future standard GUI library Beinan Li <li.beinan@gmail.com> - 2013-05-18 10:03 -0400
  Re: Future standard GUI library Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2013-05-18 11:32 -0400
  Re: Future standard GUI library Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-18 21:25 +0000
  Re: Future standard GUI library llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-05-18 20:01 -0700
    Re: Future standard GUI library Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2013-05-19 08:57 -0400
  Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-22 15:42 +0200
    Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-23 00:24 +1000
      Re: Future standard GUI library llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-05-22 19:31 -0700
        Re: Future standard GUI library Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-05-23 07:43 +0100
        Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-23 16:48 +1000
        RE: Future standard GUI library Carlos Nepomuceno <carlosnepomuceno@outlook.com> - 2013-05-23 09:58 +0300
        Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-23 17:03 +1000
        RE: Future standard GUI library Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-05-23 08:08 +0100
      Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-23 17:41 +0200
        Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-24 01:51 +1000
          Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-26 19:43 +0200
            Re: Future standard GUI library Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-26 14:16 -0400
              Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-27 17:31 +0200
                Re: Future standard GUI library Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 11:13 -0600
                Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 08:21 +1000
                Re: Future standard GUI library Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-27 19:10 -0400
                Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 17:11 +1000
                Re: Future standard GUI library 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 02:40 -0700
                Re: Future standard GUI library Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 01:01 +0000
            RE: Future standard GUI library Carlos Nepomuceno <carlosnepomuceno@outlook.com> - 2013-05-26 21:32 +0300
              Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-28 19:26 +0200
                Re: Future standard GUI library Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 12:16 -0600
                RE: Future standard GUI library Carlos Nepomuceno <carlosnepomuceno@outlook.com> - 2013-05-29 00:17 +0300
                Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 17:20 +1000
            Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 04:56 +1000
            Re: Future standard GUI library Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-05-26 13:41 -0600
              Re: Future standard GUI library Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-26 15:45 -0400
                Re: Future standard GUI library Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-05-26 15:13 -0600
                Re: Future standard GUI library Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-28 15:40 +0000
              Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-27 17:22 +0200
                Re: Future standard GUI library Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 11:16 -0600
                Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-30 18:40 +0200
                Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-31 02:53 +1000
                Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 06:46 +1000
                Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-06-01 20:18 +0200
                Re: Future standard GUI library Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-01 17:52 -0400
            Re: Future standard GUI library Ian Foote <ian@feete.org> - 2013-05-26 22:02 +0100
            Re: Future standard GUI library Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 08:09 +1000
        Re: Future standard GUI library Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-23 20:37 +0000
          Re: Future standard GUI library Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-05-28 19:28 +0200
            Re: Future standard GUI library Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-28 18:25 +0000
              Re: Future standard GUI library 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 16:19 -0700

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