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Groups > comp.lang.python > #39637

Re: Python Newbie

From Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Subject Re: Python Newbie
Date 2013-02-22 20:04 -0500
References (4 earlier) <kg7t19$a63$1@dont-email.me> <XnsA16F92E78A66duncanbooth@127.0.0.1> <5127848B.1060004@gmail.com> <mailman.2271.1361545569.2939.python-list@python.org> <928d2cf7-728b-4f35-b8c9-4c9b958507e5@googlegroups.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.2320.1361581500.2939.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 2/22/2013 4:37 PM, piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com wrote:

Yours is the first post here, that I know of, from someone 'forced' to 
learn and use Python at their job. Several people have instead 
complained about being prohibited from using Python at work. I am sorry 
that you have been introduced to it in such a poor way.

I am doubly sorry that your first Python job is to work with a monstrous 
script that most of us would likely also hate. I am sure anyone 
responding here would have split 2000 lines into multiple  testable 
functions even if every function was called just once (other than in the 
test code).

I came to Python from C. It took me about 2 weeks to grok the difference 
between being object based and memory-block based. I am glad someone who 
knows something of C# could say more.

About 'if obj: pass'. Simplifying just a bit, the interpreter executes 
that internally as 'if obj.__bool__() ...'. It adds the implicit call so 
you do not have to write it, or an equivalent expression. For each 
class, the method gives an appropriate default classification. For 
numbers, 'if x' means 'if x != 0'. For collections, 'if c' means 'if 
len(c) != 0'. Once one gets used to it, it is a great saving in writing 
and reading. If the default classification is not the one you want, you 
write an explicit expression that is the one you want.

I too would have preferred fun or func, but I live with def.

As for function calling, forget 'pass by value' versus 'pass by 
reference'. Both mislead in certain situations.

x = y+3

computes an object from 'y+3', looking up name 'y' in the current 
namespaces, and associates the object with name 'x' in the current local 
namespace. (This assumes the default situation with no 'global x' or 
'nonlocal x' declarations.)

def f(x): return 2*x
f(y+3)

computes an object from 'y+3' looking up name 'y' in the current 
namespaces, makes the local namespace of f the current local namespace, 
and associates the object with the name 'x' in the new local namespace.

Toy? I think the first 'killer app' for Python was nuclear weapon 
calculations at U.S. National Labs (Livermore and Los Alamos), where 
numerical python started. The current version, numpy, along with scipy 
and many other packages, is used throughout the sciences.

On the other hand, Python is the most fun language for most of us, so in 
that sense it's a great toy. And I also think it a great replacement for 
Basic.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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Thread

Python Newbie Piterrr <piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 13:26 -0800
  Re: Python Newbie Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 14:54 -0700
  Re: Python Newbie MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-21 21:58 +0000
  Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 08:59 +1100
  Re: Python Newbie Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2013-02-21 22:03 +0000
  Re: Python Newbie Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-02-21 17:22 -0500
  Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-21 14:40 -0800
    Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 10:21 +1100
      Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-21 15:34 -0800
        Re: Python Newbie Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-21 23:48 +0000
        Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 11:32 +1100
        Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 11:58 -0700
      Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-21 15:34 -0800
    Re: Python Newbie Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 23:27 +0000
    Re: Python Newbie Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 16:55 -0700
    Re: Python Newbie rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 22:57 -0800
    Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-22 10:26 +0000
      Re: Python Newbie Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 12:05 +0100
      Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 22:23 +1100
    Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 16:04 -0700
    Re: Python Newbie Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 09:23 +0100
    Re: Python Newbie "J.R." <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2013-02-24 23:02 -0300
      Re: Python Newbie Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-24 21:03 -0500
        Re: Python Newbie "J.R." <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2013-02-24 23:35 -0300
        Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 13:31 +1100
  Re: Python Newbie Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-21 19:35 -0500
  Re: Python Newbie Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-21 23:50 -0500
    Re: Python Newbie Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 11:58 +0000
      Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 23:12 +1100
        Re: Python Newbie Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 13:50 +0000
          Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 01:05 +1100
            Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-23 00:03 +0000
              Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 11:21 +1100
          Re: Python Newbie Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-22 14:26 +0000
            Re: Python Newbie Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 15:45 +0100
              Re: Python Newbie Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-22 15:02 +0000
            Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 02:06 +1100
              Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-22 13:37 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 22:08 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 15:45 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-22 15:38 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 11:17 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-23 13:29 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 08:38 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 15:52 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 10:18 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-23 15:46 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-23 20:20 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-24 14:34 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 07:46 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 02:52 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-24 11:22 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-24 17:44 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 11:29 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 21:35 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 14:43 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 18:05 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 23:13 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 14:43 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-26 00:32 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-26 10:23 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-26 10:59 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-26 13:30 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 18:31 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 09:08 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 23:18 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 22:51 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 15:38 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 10:45 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-24 15:53 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 16:08 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 00:28 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-25 00:38 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-24 16:33 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 00:45 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-24 19:50 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-25 01:04 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 12:27 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 18:42 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 12:24 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 01:44 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 12:53 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-25 02:23 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-24 18:59 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 16:08 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-24 19:42 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 15:38 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 23:21 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-02-24 17:47 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 14:40 +0200
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 07:46 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 22:23 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-24 00:11 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-24 12:37 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 10:56 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-24 13:07 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-24 21:01 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-22 15:38 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-22 20:04 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-22 18:48 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-22 20:47 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-23 02:02 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 13:18 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-24 18:19 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 07:25 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-22 21:40 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 13:48 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-23 02:59 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-23 13:34 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 08:40 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-24 12:41 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-23 04:13 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 11:48 +0200
                Re: Python Newbie Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 12:30 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 16:43 +0100
                Re: Python Newbie jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 10:44 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 12:13 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-23 11:08 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 12:53 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 08:48 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-24 00:02 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 12:16 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2013-02-24 00:06 +0100
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 02:51 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2013-02-24 00:04 +0100
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-23 08:32 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 18:39 +0100
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 12:19 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-24 17:11 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 11:40 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-24 15:06 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie "Michael Ross" <gmx@ross.cx> - 2013-02-24 21:33 +0100
                Re: Python Newbie MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-24 20:34 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-24 20:41 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-24 12:34 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 07:42 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-24 15:48 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 21:58 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-24 21:08 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 02:59 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 07:47 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 07:58 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-24 16:08 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 08:44 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-24 17:40 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-25 01:11 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-25 00:42 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 18:34 -0700
                Re: Python Newbie Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-02-24 14:33 -0800
                Re: Python Newbie Albert Hopkins <marduk@letterboxes.org> - 2013-02-24 18:32 -0500
                Re: Python Newbie Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 10:44 +1100
                Re: Python Newbie Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-25 01:06 +0000
                Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-24 11:40 -0800
              Re: Python Newbie piterrr.dolinski@gmail.com - 2013-02-22 13:37 -0800
      Re: Python Newbie Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-22 20:05 -0500
  Re: Python Newbie Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-02-23 12:32 -0500
  Re: Python Newbie Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 19:10 +0100
  Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 11:40 -0700
  Re: Python Newbie Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 12:15 -0700
  Re: Python Newbie Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-02-23 17:49 -0500
  Re: Python Newbie Nick Mellor <thebalancepro@gmail.com> - 2013-02-25 19:37 -0800

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