Re: I hate you all

References	(2 earlier) <906d8c05-99dc-4209-854c-7988ca7c78e3@googlegroups.com> <mailman.165.1365201779.3114.python-list@python.org> <95b2bc1c-57a2-48c9-85ea-cf1004c9e26c@googlegroups.com> <mailman.173.1365208512.3114.python-list@python.org> <515fad75$0$32109$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Date	2013-04-05 22:28 -0700
Subject	Re: I hate you all
From	Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.185.1365226518.3114.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 06.04.2013 03:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:22 AM,  <terminatorul@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 6, 2013 1:42:15 AM UTC+3, Ian wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> The "def" line has four spaces.  The "for" line then has a hard tab.
>>>> This is ambiguous.  If the hard tab is assumed to have a width of four
>>>> spaces, then they are at the same indentation level.  If it is assumed
>>>> to have a width of eight spaces, then they are not.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> The correct tab stop positions have always been at 8 character columns apart.
>>> The "ambiguity" was introduced by editors that do not follow the default value set in hardware like printers or used by consoles and terminal emulators.
>>>
>>> And now python forces me out of using any tab characters at all. I believe I should still have a choice, python should at lest give an option to set tab size, if the default of 8 is ambiguous now.
>>
>>
>> If you're indenting four spaces per level, then indent four spaces per
>> level. The code you posted would work perfectly if the indentation is
>> four spaces, then eight spaces, then twelve spaces. The problem is
>> that you have a stupid editor that's enforcing tabs instead of certain
>> multiples of spaces - get one that'll keep them all as spaces and you
>> won't have a problem.
>
>
> My editor is not the problem, of course, this is about what I think is right. I think I should be given the option to use tabs as I always have, and at least to use them with the default tab size, as python 2 used to.
>
>
>> Or use actual tabs, and set the displayed tab width to whatever you
>> feel like. That works, too. Neither option causes any problems with
>> any sane tools.
>
>
> Well this is the problem, the tab size is not "whatever I like", tab stops are 8 character columns apart (default).
>
> Changing the tab size from this default is what makes the code incompatible, not the tabs themselves. So the solution is simple: do not change tab size from the default.
>
> People say I can use tabs all the way, just set them to the indent I want.
>
> Well, I always had my indent independent of the tab size. Which is the way it should be, after all, since one can indent with or without tabs, so indent should not be tied to them.
>
> But now I can not; python no longer lets me do that.
>
> Tab size should be 8, so now python 3 says: either indent at 8 with tabs, either drop tabs and indent with spaces (just the same as if tabs are not allowed).
>
> But that is so wrong. I can indent at 4 (or any value), and still use tabs, as long as the interpreter knows tab stops are 8 columns apart. There is no "ambiguity" and no way to change the meaning of the code.
>
> So as a comparison we have:
>
>  - the good old rules
>         - python has use the default tab stops of 8 columns
>         - indent is independent of tab stops
>
>  - the new rules
>         - python is independent of the tab stops
>         - indent is now tied to the tab stop, so users have to :
>                 - use non-default tab size (8 is too much), or
>                 - drop tabs altogether
>
> The new rules may look flexible at first sight, but the net effect they have is they push me to use non-default tab size (which is not good), or drop the tabs, which I could have used before python 3 just fine.
>
>
> Thank you,
> Timothy Madden

http://www.xkcd.com/1172/

Thread

I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 14:41 -0700
  Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:53 +1100
  Re: I hate you all John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2013-04-05 21:55 +0000
    Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 15:04 -0700
      Re: I hate you all Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 17:28 -0500
      Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 16:42 -0600
        Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 17:22 -0700
          Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 11:35 +1100
            Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:07 +0300
              Re: I hate you all Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2013-04-05 22:28 -0700
              Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:53 -0600
                Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 09:56 +0300
                Re: I hate you all Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 11:17 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:22 +0300
                Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:30 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Roland Koebler <r.koebler@yahoo.de> - 2013-04-08 00:52 +0200
              Re: I hate you all Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:59 -0600
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-06 06:19 +0000
              Re: I hate you all Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:49 -0600
          Re: I hate you all Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 19:50 -0500
          Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-06 02:07 +0000
          Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 21:53 -0600
            Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:36 +0300
              Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 16:44 +1100
              Re: I hate you all Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:58 -0600
                Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 10:07 +0300
              Re: I hate you all Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-04-05 23:00 -0700
                Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:37 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:49 -0400
              Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-06 06:55 +0000
              Re: I hate you all Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 13:17 -0700
                Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 14:37 +0300
            Re: I hate you all Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-04-06 14:52 +0100
              Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 01:20 +1100
                Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:37 +0300
                Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:01 -0400
                Re: I hate you all Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-04-06 15:15 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:41 +0000
                Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 09:00 -0700
                Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:59 -0400
                Re: I hate you all Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-04-06 18:48 +0000
                Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:31 -0700
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 07:29 +1000
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-07 01:38 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-07 01:30 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 22:15 -0400
                Re: I hate you all Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 20:42 -0600
                Re: I hate you all Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-04-08 19:43 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-08 19:48 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-08 21:25 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-08 21:29 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 08:00 +1000
                Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-08 22:51 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 08:57 +1000
                Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-09 09:33 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-09 13:39 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-04-09 09:17 -0500
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 00:20 +1000
                Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-09 16:51 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-09 21:09 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-09 23:09 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-09 23:21 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 09:28 +1000
                Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-09 23:50 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 10:31 +1000
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-10 02:00 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 12:14 +1000
                Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-10 00:39 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-10 00:41 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-09 21:43 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-09 02:51 +0000
                Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 21:06 -0700
                Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 21:52 -0700
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-09 05:19 +0000
          Re: I hate you all "Günther Dietrich" <gd.usenet@spamfence.net> - 2013-04-06 14:55 +0200
        Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 17:22 -0700
      Re: I hate you all Isaac To <isaac.to@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 06:35 +0800
      Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 17:00 -0600
  Re: I hate you all Dylan Evans <dylan@dje.me> - 2013-04-06 14:28 +1000
    Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 22:13 -0700
      Re: I hate you all Dylan Evans <dylan@dje.me> - 2013-04-07 13:00 +1000
        Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 14:44 +0300
          Re: I hate you all Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-04-07 11:12 -0700
            Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-07 14:33 -0400
    Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 22:13 -0700
  Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:27 +0000
    Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:58 -0400
  Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-07 19:25 +0100

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