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| References | (4 earlier) <862693ca-42cf-4f5b-ac12-133e43e7606b@googlegroups.com> <878uclf3bt.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <555af171$0$12995$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <874mn9ezaw.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <CAPTjJmoY8F_=NiSsjsaiB1PN_Tcxs9C9k6T0PqYHWWR912o7KQ@mail.gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| From | Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> |
| Date | 2015-05-19 15:18 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Slices time complexity |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
| Message-ID | <mailman.138.1432045162.17265.python-list@python.org> (permalink) |
On 19 May 2015 at 09:50, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>> For example, you could explain Python's object references as pointers
>> (memory addresses) if you considered that helpful. (That's how Lisp
>> textbooks often explain cons cells.)
>
> Sorta-kinda-maybe, but if a C programmer's idea of pointers is invoked
> to explain Python's object references, the differences will start to
> be problematic:
>
> 1) Pointer arithmetic simply doesn't exist in Python. Arrays/lists are
> not just pointers to their first elements, and subscripting is most
> definitely NOT "add to pointer and dereference".
> 2) In fact, dereferencing as a whole isn't really a 'thing' either. At
> best, it happens automatically.
> 3) References actually mean something. Copying a pointer doesn't.
> Whether the Python you're using is refcounted (CPython) or
> mark-and-sweep (uPy, I think) or some other model, an additional
> reference to the same object will prevent it from being disposed of,
> which isn't the case in C.
> 4) A pointer is itself a value. You can pass a
> pointer-to-local-variable to another function and have that function
> change a local variable.
I think this is actually one of those areas where the analogy does
make sense. In Python if I pass an object as an argument to another
function I can mutate the object but I can't rebind the name in the
parent frame. Similarly in C I can pass a pointer to anything into
another function and the other function will be able to mutate the
pointed-to variable but not change the value of the pointer in the
parent frame.
int b = 2;
void f(int* d)
{
*d = 3; // Changes a which is pointed to by c and d.
d = &b; // Doesn't affect c.
*d = 4; // Changes b
}
int main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int a = 1;
int *c = &a; // a and *c are the same object
f(c);
// c still points to a but a is now 3.
printf("*c = %d\n", *c);
return 0;
}
The effect is the same in Python except that I can't use an int for
the demo since they're immutable:
b = [2]
def g(d):
d[0] = 3 # Changes a which is also c and d
d = b # Doesn't affect a or c
d[0] = 4 # Changes b
def main():
a = [1]
c = a # a and c are the same object
f(c)
# c is still a but a is now [3]
print("c =", c)
main()
Having taught beginners to program with C as a first programming
language and with Python as a first programming language I would say
that in either case this is an important fundamental concept that
beginners need to get their heads round. If a C programmer finds it
easier to understand how Python handles it by relating it to pointers
then that's great.
> 5) Furthermore, since a pointer is a value, you can have pointers to
> pointers, etc. Doesn't make any sense in Python.
You can have a reference to a container object which references other
objects. The effect is more or less the same if you want to understand
how something like this works:
a = [[0] * 5] * 5
--
Oscar
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Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:23 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:36 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:49 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 06:04 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:42 +0200
Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 13:49 -0600
Re: Slices time complexity Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:54 +0200
Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:23 +0200
Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:04 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-18 22:38 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-18 19:04 -0400
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 19:20 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 15:13 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:33 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 10:12 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:16 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 11:39 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 18:50 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 12:35 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 23:44 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-05-20 23:54 +0200
Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-19 23:00 +1200
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 11:47 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-05-20 08:07 -0400
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 22:42 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:24 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 12:31 +1200
Re: Slices time complexity Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-20 10:42 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:24 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 21:30 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 06:06 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:57 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:17 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:23 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:46 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 00:03 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 10:45 +0300
List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 17:23 +1000
Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 20:54 +1200
Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-05-20 04:08 -0700
Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-20 14:42 -0400
Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-21 11:06 +1200
Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 12:10 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-20 10:56 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 10:16 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 15:19 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-21 09:20 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity bartc <bart4858@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:34 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-21 17:50 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-22 03:16 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity bart4858@gmail.com - 2015-05-21 12:48 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 12:26 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 12:36 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 20:02 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 21:43 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 18:59 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:46 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 04:12 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 21:19 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 10:43 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:30 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:33 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:58 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 15:18 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:46 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:14 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:19 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:41 -0700
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 19:45 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 13:15 +0300
Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 12:09 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-19 15:52 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:07 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 03:19 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 20:51 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 14:33 -0600
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:35 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 21:47 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 22:23 +0100
Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 17:35 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 18:25 +1000
Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:15 -0600
Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 22:51 +0300
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