Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity]

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity]
Date	2015-05-20 20:54 +1200
Message-ID	<cs30daFu54gU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(12 earlier) <87oalfooz7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <92992653-d511-4e33-a21d-541eeda4799b@googlegroups.com> <555c225b$0$2769$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> <28bca3fb-653d-40fb-9944-d28b01e77244@googlegroups.com> <555c368c$0$12906$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

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Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Code snippet 1:
> 
>     x = [[1,2],[1,2]]
> 
> creates a list bound to the name "x", containing a list containing ints 1 
> and 2, and a second independent list also containing ints 1 and 2.

Using the word "contains" here is misleading, because
it conjures a mental picture of physical containment,
which is exactly what you *don't* want to suggest.

>     z = [1,2]
>     y = [z, z]
> 
> creates a list bound to the name "z", ints 1 and 2; then it creates a second 
> list, bound to name "y", containing the first list "z" twice.

At this point the student thinks, "Um... what? How
can an object contain another object *twice*?"
If he's still thinking in physical terms, this
sentence is nonsensical.

It gets even worse with:

x = [1, 2]
x[1] = x

Now you have to say that the list contains *itself*
in some weird Tardis-like fashion!

I can't think of any way to dispel the confusion
verbally without using some word like "reference"
or "pointer" or something with an equivalent meaning.
Something that suggests a level of indirectness.

> A diagram may help, especially for more complicated situations,

Seems to me that a diagram is far and away the
easiest and most effective way to convey what's
really going on. It's difficult to do that with
words alone, because English isn't really equipped
to talk about it precisely enough.

-- 
Greg

Thread

Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:23 +0100
  Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:36 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:49 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 06:04 +1000
  Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:42 +0200
  Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 13:49 -0600
    Re: Slices time complexity Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:54 +0200
      Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:23 +0200
    Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:04 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-18 22:38 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-18 19:04 -0400
    Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 19:20 -0700
      Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 15:13 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:33 -0700
          Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 10:12 +0300
            Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:16 +1000
              Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 11:39 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 18:50 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 12:35 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 23:44 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-05-20 23:54 +0200
                Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-19 23:00 +1200
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 11:47 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-05-20 08:07 -0400
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 22:42 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:24 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 12:31 +1200
                Re: Slices time complexity Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-20 10:42 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:24 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 21:30 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 06:06 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:57 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:17 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:23 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:46 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 00:03 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 10:45 +0300
                List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 17:23 +1000
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 20:54 +1200
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-05-20 04:08 -0700
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-20 14:42 -0400
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-21 11:06 +1200
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 12:10 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-20 10:56 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 10:16 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 15:19 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-21 09:20 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity bartc <bart4858@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:34 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-21 17:50 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-22 03:16 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity bart4858@gmail.com - 2015-05-21 12:48 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 12:26 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 12:36 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 20:02 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 21:43 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 18:59 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:46 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 04:12 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 21:19 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 10:43 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:30 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:33 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:58 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 15:18 +0100
            Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:46 -0700
              Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:14 -0700
          Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:19 +1000
            Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:41 -0700
  Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 19:45 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 13:15 +0300
    Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 12:09 +0100
    Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-19 15:52 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:07 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 03:19 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 20:51 +0100
          Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 14:33 -0600
          Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:35 +1000
          Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 21:47 +0100
            Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 22:23 +0100
          Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 17:35 +1000
            Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 18:25 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:15 -0600
    Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 22:51 +0300

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