Re: Slices time complexity

References	(5 earlier) <878uclf3bt.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <555af171$0$12995$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <874mn9ezaw.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <mailman.124.1432025439.17265.python-list@python.org> <555b2fa9$0$12996$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Date	2015-05-19 23:24 +1000
Subject	Re: Slices time complexity
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.134.1432041891.17265.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 May 2015 06:50 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>> For example, you could explain Python's object references as pointers
>>> (memory addresses) if you considered that helpful. (That's how Lisp
>>> textbooks often explain cons cells.)
>>
>> Sorta-kinda-maybe, but if a C programmer's idea of pointers is invoked
>> to explain Python's object references, the differences will start to
>> be problematic:
>>
>> 1) Pointer arithmetic simply doesn't exist in Python. Arrays/lists are
>> not just pointers to their first elements, and subscripting is most
>> definitely NOT "add to pointer and dereference".
>> 2) In fact, dereferencing as a whole isn't really a 'thing' either. At
>> best, it happens automatically.
>> 3) References actually mean something. Copying a pointer doesn't.
>> Whether the Python you're using is refcounted (CPython) or
>> mark-and-sweep (uPy, I think) or some other model, an additional
>> reference to the same object will prevent it from being disposed of,
>> which isn't the case in C.
>> 4) A pointer is itself a value. You can pass a
>> pointer-to-local-variable to another function and have that function
>> change a local variable.
>> 5) Furthermore, since a pointer is a value, you can have pointers to
>> pointers, etc. Doesn't make any sense in Python.
>
> Chris, that is one of the best explanations for why "references equals
> pointers" is *not* a good explanation for Python's behaviour. I may have to
> steal it :-)

:) They say that turnabout is fair play. I stole your "Python vs
MATLAB" python-tutor post about call-by-value vs call-by-reference vs
object semantics for years (until some other pages picked up the same
content). Go for it!

That said, though, I was specifically referring to C's pointer
semantics. As Gregory pointed out, Pascal has rather different pointer
semantics; but if you're talking about Python references and
considering using any concept of object addressing and pointers, it's
most likely going to be something similar to C/assembly, where a
pointer is a dereferenceable integer storing an offset into memory.

(But don't even get *started* on near vs far pointers, code vs data
segments and the thunks required to transform between them,
memory-mapped disk, virtual segments, overlapping segments, shared
memory, memory-mapped I/O, and all those other things that C
programmers sometimes contend with. Fun, but hardly anything to do
with Python objects. :) )

ChrisA

Thread

Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:23 +0100
  Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:36 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:49 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 06:04 +1000
  Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:42 +0200
  Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 13:49 -0600
    Re: Slices time complexity Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:54 +0200
      Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:23 +0200
    Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:04 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-18 22:38 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-18 19:04 -0400
    Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 19:20 -0700
      Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 15:13 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:33 -0700
          Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 10:12 +0300
            Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:16 +1000
              Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 11:39 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 18:50 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 12:35 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 23:44 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-05-20 23:54 +0200
                Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-19 23:00 +1200
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 11:47 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-05-20 08:07 -0400
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 22:42 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:24 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 12:31 +1200
                Re: Slices time complexity Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-20 10:42 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:24 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 21:30 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 06:06 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:57 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:17 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:23 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:46 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 00:03 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 10:45 +0300
                List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 17:23 +1000
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 20:54 +1200
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-05-20 04:08 -0700
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-20 14:42 -0400
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-21 11:06 +1200
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 12:10 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-20 10:56 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 10:16 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 15:19 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-21 09:20 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity bartc <bart4858@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:34 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-21 17:50 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-22 03:16 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity bart4858@gmail.com - 2015-05-21 12:48 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 12:26 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 12:36 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 20:02 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 21:43 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 18:59 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:46 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 04:12 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 21:19 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 10:43 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:30 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:33 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:58 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 15:18 +0100
            Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:46 -0700
              Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:14 -0700
          Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:19 +1000
            Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:41 -0700
  Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 19:45 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 13:15 +0300
    Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 12:09 +0100
    Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-19 15:52 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:07 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 03:19 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 20:51 +0100
          Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 14:33 -0600
          Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:35 +1000
          Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 21:47 +0100
            Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 22:23 +0100
          Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 17:35 +1000
            Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 18:25 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:15 -0600
    Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 22:51 +0300

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