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Re: how to get the ordinal number in list

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On 8/12/2014 2:20 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:10:48 PM UTC+5:30, Neil D. Cerutti wrote:
>> Beginners are particularly poor, in relation to experts, at noticing the
>> applicability of idea, and at combining ideas together. Breaking things
>> into component parts has multiple benefits:
>
>> 1. The applicability of individual ideas becomes obvious. It's one thing
>> to know about [].sort, and another thing to know when it's appropriate
>> to sort something.
>
>> 2. The expert specifically shows how and why the ideas are combined.
>> This helps build the connection for the beginner, whose knowledge is not
>> stored as an expert stores it; i.e, in broad categories with multiple
>> connections; but as disorganized data with very few connections.
>
> Nice!
>
> And how do we lead the beginners towards expertise?
> In a way functional programming is to programming creativity
> what lego is to children's spatial creativity.
>
> Specifically there are a bunch of pieces that need to fit:
>
> 1. Functional Programming: Nothing more than composing functions
>     [Maybe a bit simplistic but not unrealistic a defn]
> 2. Trying this out at the interpreter
> 3. Introspectable objects

Functional programming could be particularly hard to teach since it is 
generally made up of numerous small units of work combined in a complex 
way. This is precisely the formula for something that beginners will 
find extremely challenging.

When functional programming is dumbed down enough for a beginner to be 
able to grok it, the programming problems start to look really lame. It 
needn't be that way, of course, but it takes a good deal of creativity 
on the part of the instructor. If Factorial doesn't turn you on, you 
might be screwed. ;)

> Some things follow from this:
>
> For the lego-game of playing with functions at the REPL to work and be
> pleasant and rewarding:
>
> 1. functions should be non side-effecting; else same trials giving different
> answers adds more confusion than understanding
> 2. They should be non-printing else:
>
> def foo(x): return x+1
> def bar(x): print x+1
>
> look similar when trivially tried but compositionally are utterly different
>
> In effect a printing function breaks the lego bricks

That may be so, but printing stuff to the screen is very natural to 
people. I've downloaded Haskell a few times, but the knowledge that 
getting input and writing output requires something mysterious called 
gonads just frightens me.

> [The P in the REPL is DRY enough that it does not usually need to be
> repeated all over]

A good REPL does help a lot, though.

> 3. Abstractions (class instances) should be avoided in favor of
> concrete data (lists, dicts, scalars) because they add undue mess at little
> comprehension advantage. eg take the example of a regex match. It
> returns some object and then we have to scratch our heads wondering
> whats in the magic box. If instead of match, we use findall, the data
> is manifest and obvious.

I'm with you on regex: match objects suck. That and escaping.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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Re: how to get the ordinal number in list luofeiyu <elearn2014@gmail.com> - 2014-08-09 10:35 -0700
  Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-09 13:06 +1000
    Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-08 20:48 -0700
      Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-09 11:34 -0400
        Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-10 09:43 +1000
        Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 09:28 -0700
          Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-10 13:10 -0400
            Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 10:34 -0700
              Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-10 14:14 -0400
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 11:26 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 05:03 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-10 22:14 +0300
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 05:20 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 22:23 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 15:46 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 23:22 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 08:55 +0000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 19:15 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 12:35 +0300
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 19:51 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 13:46 +0300
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 21:06 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 09:44 +0000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 19:53 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 21:30 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 20:07 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 10:47 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-13 11:31 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-12 21:45 -0400
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-13 12:06 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-11 07:55 -0400
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-11 07:30 -0500
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 15:41 +0300
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 22:53 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-11 14:57 +0100
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-10 21:32 +0100
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-10 18:01 -0400
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 08:43 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 20:35 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 12:04 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 12:56 +0100
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 05:11 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 22:45 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-11 15:01 +0100
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-11 12:30 +0000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 15:41 +0300
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-08-11 15:32 +0100
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-11 18:01 -0400
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 09:27 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-08-12 00:21 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-12 10:40 +0000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 23:39 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-12 18:45 +0000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-12 20:16 +0100
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-08-12 13:40 -0400
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 11:20 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-08-12 15:29 -0400
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 20:49 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-12 18:01 -0400
              Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 13:00 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 21:29 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 10:28 +0000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 04:49 -0700
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 12:11 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-13 12:18 +1000
                Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 13:11 +1000
          Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 03:17 +1000

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