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| From | "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> |
| Subject | Re: how to get the ordinal number in list |
| Date | Tue, 12 Aug 2014 15:29:35 -0400 |
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On 8/12/2014 2:20 PM, Rustom Mody wrote: > On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:10:48 PM UTC+5:30, Neil D. Cerutti wrote: >> Beginners are particularly poor, in relation to experts, at noticing the >> applicability of idea, and at combining ideas together. Breaking things >> into component parts has multiple benefits: > >> 1. The applicability of individual ideas becomes obvious. It's one thing >> to know about [].sort, and another thing to know when it's appropriate >> to sort something. > >> 2. The expert specifically shows how and why the ideas are combined. >> This helps build the connection for the beginner, whose knowledge is not >> stored as an expert stores it; i.e, in broad categories with multiple >> connections; but as disorganized data with very few connections. > > Nice! > > And how do we lead the beginners towards expertise? > In a way functional programming is to programming creativity > what lego is to children's spatial creativity. > > Specifically there are a bunch of pieces that need to fit: > > 1. Functional Programming: Nothing more than composing functions > [Maybe a bit simplistic but not unrealistic a defn] > 2. Trying this out at the interpreter > 3. Introspectable objects Functional programming could be particularly hard to teach since it is generally made up of numerous small units of work combined in a complex way. This is precisely the formula for something that beginners will find extremely challenging. When functional programming is dumbed down enough for a beginner to be able to grok it, the programming problems start to look really lame. It needn't be that way, of course, but it takes a good deal of creativity on the part of the instructor. If Factorial doesn't turn you on, you might be screwed. ;) > Some things follow from this: > > For the lego-game of playing with functions at the REPL to work and be > pleasant and rewarding: > > 1. functions should be non side-effecting; else same trials giving different > answers adds more confusion than understanding > 2. They should be non-printing else: > > def foo(x): return x+1 > def bar(x): print x+1 > > look similar when trivially tried but compositionally are utterly different > > In effect a printing function breaks the lego bricks That may be so, but printing stuff to the screen is very natural to people. I've downloaded Haskell a few times, but the knowledge that getting input and writing output requires something mysterious called gonads just frightens me. > [The P in the REPL is DRY enough that it does not usually need to be > repeated all over] A good REPL does help a lot, though. > 3. Abstractions (class instances) should be avoided in favor of > concrete data (lists, dicts, scalars) because they add undue mess at little > comprehension advantage. eg take the example of a regex match. It > returns some object and then we have to scratch our heads wondering > whats in the magic box. If instead of match, we use findall, the data > is manifest and obvious. I'm with you on regex: match objects suck. That and escaping. -- Neil Cerutti
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Re: how to get the ordinal number in list luofeiyu <elearn2014@gmail.com> - 2014-08-09 10:35 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-09 13:06 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-08 20:48 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-09 11:34 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-10 09:43 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 09:28 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-10 13:10 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 10:34 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-10 14:14 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 11:26 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 05:03 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-10 22:14 +0300
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 05:20 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 22:23 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 15:46 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 23:22 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 08:55 +0000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 19:15 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 12:35 +0300
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 19:51 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 13:46 +0300
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 21:06 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 09:44 +0000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 19:53 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 21:30 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 20:07 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 10:47 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-13 11:31 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-12 21:45 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-13 12:06 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-11 07:55 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-11 07:30 -0500
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 15:41 +0300
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 22:53 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-11 14:57 +0100
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-10 21:32 +0100
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-10 18:01 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 08:43 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 20:35 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 12:04 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 12:56 +0100
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 05:11 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 22:45 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-11 15:01 +0100
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-11 12:30 +0000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-11 15:41 +0300
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-08-11 15:32 +0100
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-11 18:01 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 09:27 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-08-12 00:21 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-12 10:40 +0000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 23:39 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-12 18:45 +0000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-12 20:16 +0100
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-08-12 13:40 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 11:20 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-08-12 15:29 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 20:49 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-12 18:01 -0400
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 13:00 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-10 21:29 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 10:28 +0000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 04:49 -0700
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 12:11 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-13 12:18 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 13:11 +1000
Re: how to get the ordinal number in list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-11 03:17 +1000
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