Re: More physical source files

From	Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: More physical source files
Date	2015-07-06 11:59 -0700
Organization	None to speak of
Message-ID	<lnio9xun6g.fsf@kst-u.example.com> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <89818ea5-b4df-4519-9383-3a704e3670e5@googlegroups.com> <5bbf7a34-8d8f-4a2b-bf48-fe174341ff2d@googlegroups.com> <lnd206w0fc.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <b5a6aef3-e9f0-4a50-9e65-8912d62f8361@googlegroups.com> <559AB33F.8010501@verizon.net>

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James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
> On 07/06/2015 11:37 AM, David Kleinecke wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 6:16:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>> David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> writes:
> ...
>>>> Actually my interest lies not in producing code but in documenting it.
>>>> If I must assume a reader must know eveything in an unreadable 683
>>>> page document I am defeted before I start.
>
> I've never seen a copy of C90 - when I needed it, it was too expensive;
> by the time it was available at a reasonable cost, I had already moved
> on to C99. I think you've said you have a copy of it? If so, how long
> was it?

The C90 standard is 230 pages, C99 is 554 pages, and C11 is 702 pages
(those are the full sizes of the PDF documents, including indices and
blank pages).

A note at the bottom of the last page of the C99 PDF says "Price based
on 537 pages"; a similar note at the end of the C11 PDF says "Price
based on 457 pages".  I don't know what that's about.

>>> If you want to define a modified version of C, I think you need to
>>> understand C as it's currently defined.  Likewise if you want to
>>> criticize it.  (I don't find the standard unreadable.)
>>  
>> I disagree. To my mind C11 is a modified version of C90 with a bad
>> case of creeping featuritis. I have no intention of crticizing C11 or
>> even commenting on it (except perhaps about threads). And I have no
>> intention of changing C. I just want to make C (meaning freestanding
>> C90) easier to read and understand.  
>
> Even if all you want to modify is C90, then his comment still stands -
> with respect to C90. You need to fully understand it before you can
> reasonably modify or criticize it (unreasonable modifications and
> criticism require far less understanding, of course). From what I've
> seen, you've got a long way to go. You're still learning basic concepts
> like what "unspecified behavior", "implementation-defined behavior" and
> "undefined behavior" mean. While you've mainly criticized later versions
> of C, many of your criticisms have been equally applicable to C90 - and
> those criticisms don't seem to be based in a solid understanding of the
> purpose of the things you're criticizing.

David, James wrote pretty much what I was going to.  You've said, if I
understand you correctly, that you dislike the idea of "unspecified
behavior" where the implementation is not required to document its
choices.  But you've declined to cite any specific example of behavior
that the standard says is unspecified but you think it shouldn't be.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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Thread

More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 11:19 -0700
  Re: More physical source files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-06-27 11:54 -0700
    Re: More physical source files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-27 21:20 +0100
  Re: More physical source files Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-27 20:24 +0100
    Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-29 07:14 -0700
      Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-29 08:16 -0700
        Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 08:24 -0700
          Re: More physical source files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-30 12:15 -0500
          Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-30 15:14 -0700
            Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-01 08:38 -0700
              Re: More physical source files glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-01 16:43 +0000
                Re: More physical source files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-01 18:52 +0100
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-01 11:21 -0700
                Re: More physical source files glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-01 18:36 +0000
                Re: More physical source files Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-01 22:33 -0400
                Re: More physical source files glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-02 19:11 +0000
              Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-01 11:08 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-01 22:30 -0400
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 08:29 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-02 17:56 +0100
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-02 13:21 -0400
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 08:54 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-04 12:23 -0400
                Re: More physical source files Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-04 11:36 -0500
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-02 16:42 -0700
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 08:54 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-03 10:05 -0700
                Re: More physical source files glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-03 21:57 +0000
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-04 00:30 -0400
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-04 08:08 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-04 12:21 -0400
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 09:22 -0700
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 09:49 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-05 18:16 -0700
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-06 08:37 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-06 12:56 -0400
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-06 11:59 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-06 15:45 -0400
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-06 13:14 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-07-07 01:10 -0700
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-07 08:00 -0700
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-07 07:55 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-07 13:13 -0400
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 08:35 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-08 12:31 -0400
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-09 08:50 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-09 16:56 +0100
                Re: More physical source files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-09 13:31 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-09 15:03 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-10 10:54 +1200
                Re: More physical source files David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-10 09:52 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-09 14:32 -0400
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-05 13:41 -0400
                Re: More physical source files Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-05 14:17 -0400
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-04 12:36 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-04 15:19 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-04 15:42 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-04 19:04 -0400
                Re: More physical source files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-05 03:25 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-05 09:18 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-05 14:11 -0400
                Re: More physical source files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-05 13:41 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-10 19:00 -0700
                Re: More physical source files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-10 18:57 -0700
                Re: More physical source files James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-04 12:50 -0400
      Re: More physical source files Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-29 17:20 +0100
  Re: More physical source files Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-28 11:57 +0200

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