Re: Resources to learn common lisp?

From	Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.lisp
Subject	Re: Resources to learn common lisp?
Date	2026-06-15 09:51 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<jwv7bo02aiq.fsf-monnier+comp.lang.lisp@gnu.org> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <110i789$2iqm8$7@dont-email.me> <110j4qk$2q1p4$1@dont-email.me> <110l0v9$3av52$1@dont-email.me> <jwvbjdd5gx3.fsf-monnier+comp.lang.lisp@gnu.org> <110nf0q$3vra6$3@dont-email.me>

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Lawrence D’Oliveiro [2026-06-14 23:55:06] wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 10:36:48 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> Yeah, GCs are very costly. Which makes it all the more amazing that
>> reference counting is typically even worse.
> Do you have a reference for that? One which shows that heap-intensive
> operations are more efficient (size, speed) when doing with a garbage
> collector than reference-counting?

[ For the Nth time: I'm not talking about memory size, only about
  speed.  And not specifically for "heap intensive" operations, but for
  just normal execution of "typical" programs.  ]

I don't have a reference, no.  But I'm pretty sure there are plenty.

I guess the most obvious argument is just the very small number of
language implementations that use reference counting and are "high
performance" (which presumably implies that the implementors have spent
some effort to try and use an efficient memory management technique).

I know there exists a GC for the JVM that uses reference counting, but
it's only one out of many others.  It is competitive speed-wise, but it
took a lot of effort to get there (it's very far from a simple reference
counting system like CPython's).

There's also Lean which uses reference counting, but I haven't seen any
indication that it's particularly fast.  AFAIK, the main purpose is to
allow "functional in place update" (by checking if the refcount is equal
to 1), IOW circumvent the language constraint on everything being
immutable yet without resorting to monads.

Given the amount of effort poured into the GC of many language
implementations, if reference counting was competitive speed-wise, it'd
be used a lot more, since it's a lot easier to implement (and debug).

=== Stefan

Thread

Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-20 22:53 +0100
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2026-02-20 22:00 +0000
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-21 12:25 +0100
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-02-21 10:24 -0500
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-21 21:30 +0000
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-22 01:08 +0100
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-22 04:59 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-02-22 10:59 +0530
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-22 21:48 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:43 -0400
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:41 -0400
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 20:02 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 00:23 -0400
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:28 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:32 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:27 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 17:33 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:16 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:53 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Axel Reichert <mail@axel-reichert.de> - 2026-06-09 12:07 +0200
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-10 00:14 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-17 00:01 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-17 05:53 +0000
                [OT] Disappearing documentation (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 09:06 +0100
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 17:22 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:59 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 00:55 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:43 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:45 +0000
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 00:35 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:37 -0400
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 00:33 +0000
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 00:22 -0400
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-09 01:22 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:17 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:50 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:40 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-11 00:26 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 22:10 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 21:37 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Joerg Mertens <joerg-mertens@t-online.de> - 2026-06-17 12:04 +0200
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-17 11:17 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 13:57 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:06 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 09:17 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-11 05:27 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 22:12 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:24 -0400
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-11 05:57 -0400
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-11 21:07 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-12 13:06 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-13 00:13 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 07:25 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:25 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:46 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:52 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:57 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-15 10:10 +0100
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:56 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 11:46 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:03 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 07:52 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 20:56 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-13 00:55 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 07:43 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 21:37 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:09 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:02 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 10:12 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 22:54 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-17 00:07 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 08:33 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-12 12:42 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 23:32 -0400
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-09 09:36 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-10 00:06 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-10 08:43 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-11 00:22 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-11 08:57 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-12 00:16 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 21:42 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 01:15 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-15 05:42 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 11:19 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 00:18 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-16 03:27 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 01:25 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 10:13 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:11 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-18 02:30 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 09:32 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 23:53 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-17 05:55 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-17 01:43 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:07 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-11 06:37 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:30 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 00:58 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:46 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-15 06:59 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-15 12:25 -0700
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 17:42 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-12 00:16 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-12 12:34 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-13 00:11 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-13 04:06 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:37 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-13 21:25 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 15:26 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:37 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 01:34 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-15 05:43 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 11:23 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 00:23 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-16 03:29 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 04:59 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 15:10 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 13:34 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:36 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:43 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-14 10:36 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 23:55 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 18:04 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 12:33 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-15 09:51 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 00:23 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 03:14 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 15:29 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-16 10:23 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 21:34 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-17 15:02 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 04:14 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 13:14 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 02:30 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 11:46 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:22 -0700
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:55 +0000
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tpeplt <tpeplt@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 17:44 -0500
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-21 12:30 +0100
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-20 23:50 +0000
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-21 00:24 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-02-21 11:36 +0100
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-21 12:44 +0100
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-03-31 17:47 -0400
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:41 +0000
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tpeplt <tpeplt@gmail.com> - 2026-04-01 13:23 -0400
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 21:59 -0400
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Peri Didaskalou <pfd@torfree.net> - 2026-05-01 10:52 -0400
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Peri Didaskalou <pfd@torfree.net> - 2026-05-01 10:57 -0400
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Peri Didaskalou <pfd@torfree.net> - 2026-05-01 11:06 -0400
  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 14:56 -0400
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Robert B. Carleton" <rbc@rbcarleton.net> - 2026-06-01 23:02 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 21:32 -0400
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-03 03:16 +0000

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