Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart)

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.physics
Subject	Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart)
Date	2021-11-18 16:58 +1100
Message-ID	<ivm8c7Fshn3U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<ivlmquFpgojU1@mid.individual.net> <ivlp26FptcgU1@mid.individual.net> <ivm3j8FrmteU1@mid.individual.net>

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On 18-Nov-21 3:36 pm, whodat wrote:
> On 11/17/2021 7:37 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 18-Nov-21 11:59 am, whodat wrote:
> 
> This is a "second thought" posting. Probably the best place to begin is
> with a recent conversation I had with a woman who coincidentally is a
> trained "life coach." And I do mean coincidentally because the reason
> for our conversation had nothing to do with her training. But the
> outcome did as I will show.
> 
> In the course of this conversation, at a critical juncture she destroyed
> all her credibility by stating, "smart people say..."
> 
> "Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based
> on unsound logic. When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they
> are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by
> someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject."
> 
> <https://www.softschools.com/examples/fallacies/appeal_to_authority_examples/430/? 
> 
> 
> When appeal to authority takes center stage, it is a variation on
> Godwin's law. The real conversation is over.
> 
>>> Several posters in this newsgroup claim to be of genius caliber.
>>>
>>> So here's a challenge for them. Prove, or disprove, Euclid's
>>> parallel postulate, also known as his fifth postulate. 
>>
>> It has been known for a long time that it cannot be proved or disproved.
> 
> And here you are, Sylvia, with an appeal to an invisible authority.
> 
> You've accepted what is "common wisdom" without really thinking the
> details through.
> 
> Even worse, you say "it cannot be proved or disproved. Really? How would
> you go about proving *that*? You really cannot. 

The point is that consistent geometries exist in which it is true 
(Euclidean), and false (spherical, for example), and in which the other 
four axioms are true.

If it were possible to prove the fifth from the other four, then it 
could be proved in spherical geometry, where there are obvious 
counter-examples.

Similarly, if it could be proved false from the other four, then it 
would be proved false in Euclidean geometry, again, despite obvious 
counter-examples.

So neither proof nor disproof from the other axioms is possible. It is a 
genuine axiom in its own right, tells you whether or not you're dealing 
with Euclidean geometry.

Sylvia.

Thread

Since several claim to be so smart whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-17 18:59 -0600
  Re: Since several claim to be so smart Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 12:37 +1100
    Re: Since several claim to be so smart whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-17 20:05 -0600
      Re: Since several claim to be so smart Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 15:15 +1100
        Objective reality is unobtainable. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2021-11-17 22:40 -0800
          Re: Objective reality is unobtainable. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-18 05:34 -0600
    Re: Since several claim to be so smart James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 19:07 -0800
      Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-17 20:15 -0800
        Re: Since several claim to be so smart James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 20:52 -0800
          Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-17 21:10 -0800
            Re: Since several claim to be so smart James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 21:21 -0800
              Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 09:36 -0800
            Re: Since several claim to be so smart Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2021-11-18 08:57 -0600
              Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 09:37 -0800
    Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-17 22:36 -0600
      Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 21:19 -0800
        Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 09:38 -0800
          Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 09:58 -0800
            Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 10:26 -0800
            Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 10:32 -0800
              Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 10:52 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 11:05 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 12:27 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 12:37 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 15:14 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 15:23 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 23:08 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 06:40 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 07:19 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 07:36 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Claudius Denk <claudiusdenk@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 08:37 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 08:53 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 10:20 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Claudius Denk <claudiusdenk@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 13:21 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 13:36 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 15:33 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 16:24 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 16:42 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 17:40 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 17:55 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-20 18:29 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 18:32 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-20 19:12 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 19:18 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-20 20:16 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 21:58 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-21 09:33 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-21 10:21 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-21 12:05 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-21 13:23 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2021-11-20 21:49 -0600
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 12:20 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-19 01:41 -0500
      Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 16:58 +1100
        Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-18 05:29 -0600
          Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 23:51 +1100
            Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-18 09:52 -0600
              Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 08:42 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-20 11:52 +1100
  Re: Since several claim to be so smart "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2021-11-21 12:10 -0800

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