Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart)

From	whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics
Subject	Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart)
Date	2021-11-17 22:36 -0600
Message-ID	<ivm3j8FrmteU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<ivlmquFpgojU1@mid.individual.net> <ivlp26FptcgU1@mid.individual.net>

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On 11/17/2021 7:37 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 18-Nov-21 11:59 am, whodat wrote:

This is a "second thought" posting. Probably the best place to begin is
with a recent conversation I had with a woman who coincidentally is a
trained "life coach." And I do mean coincidentally because the reason
for our conversation had nothing to do with her training. But the
outcome did as I will show.

In the course of this conversation, at a critical juncture she destroyed
all her credibility by stating, "smart people say..."

"Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based
on unsound logic. When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they
are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by
someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject."

<https://www.softschools.com/examples/fallacies/appeal_to_authority_examples/430/?

When appeal to authority takes center stage, it is a variation on
Godwin's law. The real conversation is over.

>> Several posters in this newsgroup claim to be of genius caliber.
>>
>> So here's a challenge for them. Prove, or disprove, Euclid's
>> parallel postulate, also known as his fifth postulate. 
> 
> It has been known for a long time that it cannot be proved or disproved.

And here you are, Sylvia, with an appeal to an invisible authority.

You've accepted what is "common wisdom" without really thinking the
details through.

Even worse, you say "it cannot be proved or disproved. Really? How would
you go about proving *that*? You really cannot. Now I will appeal to a
genuine authority, David Berlinski. I got the idea to mount the
challenge from a book of his. Just because it has not been proved or
disproved for three millennia doesn't mean that it cannot. The rewards
for success will be great. The rewards for failure, well you've been
wasting your time anyway. Honestly it isn't an appeal to an authority
when the crux of the following discussion is "we really don't know..."

Ignoring Banerjee for the moment, consider Einstein. What in particular
allowed him to make his discoveries? What was there that kept others
from making his discoveries earlier? Sure, sure, on the shoulders of
giants and all that, but what made it all come together in 1905? It all
could have been discovered hundreds of years earlier. Similarly with
Euclid's parallel axiom, there is nothing actually holding us from
discovering proof or disproof if we agree that elementary things aren't
impossible.

"It has been known..." Berlinski doesn't think so! And neither do I, but
honestly I rely on the likes of Berlinski in formulating my opinion. I
probably should not, but there it is, an acknowledged human failing. So
please don't take any of this personally. I just think my experts are
smarter than your experts.

The balance of your posting has, IMO, merit independently of whether or
not Euclid's parallel axiom can be proven or not. The challenge I issued
remains standing. But I think that the cranks are a bunch of cowards who
rather mouth off than produce anything of merit, or even attempt to.

> If the axiom is asserted, then you have plane geometry.
> 
> If its inverse is asserted, then you have some kind of curved geometry. 
> For example, it is clearly false in spherical geometry.
> 
> Accordingly, if neither the axiom, nor is inverse, is asserted, then 
> nothing can be said about parallel lines.
> 
> Sylvia.

Thread

Since several claim to be so smart whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-17 18:59 -0600
  Re: Since several claim to be so smart Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 12:37 +1100
    Re: Since several claim to be so smart whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-17 20:05 -0600
      Re: Since several claim to be so smart Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 15:15 +1100
        Objective reality is unobtainable. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2021-11-17 22:40 -0800
          Re: Objective reality is unobtainable. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-18 05:34 -0600
    Re: Since several claim to be so smart James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 19:07 -0800
      Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-17 20:15 -0800
        Re: Since several claim to be so smart James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 20:52 -0800
          Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-17 21:10 -0800
            Re: Since several claim to be so smart James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 21:21 -0800
              Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 09:36 -0800
            Re: Since several claim to be so smart Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2021-11-18 08:57 -0600
              Re: Since several claim to be so smart Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 09:37 -0800
    Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-17 22:36 -0600
      Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 21:19 -0800
        Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 09:38 -0800
          Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 09:58 -0800
            Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 10:26 -0800
            Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 10:32 -0800
              Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 10:52 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 11:05 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 12:27 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 12:37 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 15:14 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-18 15:23 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 23:08 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 06:40 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 07:19 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 07:36 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Claudius Denk <claudiusdenk@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 08:37 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 08:53 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 10:20 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Claudius Denk <claudiusdenk@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 13:21 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 13:36 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 15:33 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 16:24 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 16:42 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-19 17:40 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 17:55 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-20 18:29 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 18:32 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-20 19:12 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 19:18 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-20 20:16 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2021-11-20 21:58 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-21 09:33 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-21 10:21 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-21 12:05 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2021-11-21 13:23 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2021-11-20 21:49 -0600
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2021-11-19 12:20 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-19 01:41 -0500
      Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 16:58 +1100
        Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-18 05:29 -0600
          Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-18 23:51 +1100
            Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-18 09:52 -0600
              Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2021-11-18 08:42 -0800
                Re: Not So Fast, Pilgrim (was Re: Since several claim to be so smart) Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-20 11:52 +1100
  Re: Since several claim to be so smart "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2021-11-21 12:10 -0800

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