Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc

From	"osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc
Date	2013-08-27 19:02 -0500
Message-ID	<b84t0nF2tt3U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <87y57nxlt8.fsf@bazspaz.fatphil.org> <b840ndFrco3U1@mid.individual.net> <521CD378.6050607@verizon.net> <b849cqFta7sU1@mid.individual.net> <521CF805.5070104@verizon.net>

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"James Kuyper" wrote:

> On 08/27/2013 02:27 PM, osmium wrote:
>> "James Kuyper" wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/27/2013 11:59 AM, osmium wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> them.  I do not consider "The method used was flawed..." to be a
>>>> critique.
>>>> I think that is called "bitching".
>>>
>>> What do you consider inappropriate about complaining about the use of
>>> flawed methods? I could understand being annoyed if the complaint failed
>>> to identify the claimed flaws, or if there's no available alternative
>>> that's free of those flaws, but you didn't mention anything like that.
>>
>> I was responding to this in Carmody's post
>>
>>> Firstly, the method they used to generate those numbers is flawed.
>>
>> There is no substance there.  It is simply an assertion  by a Most High
>> Authority that the thing is flawed.
>
> That's odd. The message I saw containing that sentence followed it up
> with one mentioning a specific flaw: "I think it's at least 50 bits
> short of the maximum possible entropy in such a stream.", and citation
> of a place to look for more information about that flaw: "(See
> comp.compression from about 5-10 years ago.)". Were those parts missing
> from the message you received?
>
> I have to agree with Eric - 50 bits seems a very small complaint for
> such a large data set. But the fact that a specific flaw was identified
> means that there is some substance to the complaint, it is not "simply
> an assertion". The fact that discussion of the issue was cited means
> he's not trying to convince you on the sole basis of his "Most High
> Authority" - he's not only allowing you to see what the arguments for
> each side were, he's actively encouraging you to do so.
>
> I didn't get any hits using "million random digits", but when I told
> Google Groups to look for messages containing million, random, and
> digits separately, it found 38 hits during the specified time period in
> the specified newsgroup. Many of those hits contained the phrase
> "million random digits" - so the fact that the first search failed is
> another example of Google flakiness. Did you look at those threads? I
> haven't bothered, but this issue seems to be of interest to you, even if
> only in the negative sense.

I saw the full post you describe.  As far as I was concerned he had wandered
off into a discussion of how imperfect it was,  I am quite sure the authors
would be quite willing to agree it was imperfect.  So what else is new?  I
did not read the link that the poster had trouble following, since he had 
problems it did not
sound like a rewarding thing for *me* to follow.

I did not search google groups, I searched google.   People have had
something like 50 years to present their findings and that's what I was 
looking
for. But my google fu is not good enough to filter out the so called humor;
all I find is attempts at humor.  I looked at the internet because I wanted 
a mathematicians evaluation, a programming group on Usenet is going to give 
me programmers evaluations of the *technique*.  The result is much more 
important to me than the technique  If someone gives me a piece of metal he 
claims is flat, I want someone to tell me how flat it is, not talk about the 
qualities and merits of various polishing and honing compounds.

It does sound like the people at Rand tried to juice the results a bit, I
am not in favor of that at all.

Thread

Random 64 bit number in stdc Guillaume Dargaud <use_the_contact_form@www.gdargaud.net> - 2013-08-07 11:07 +0200
  Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-08-07 11:23 +0100
    Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Guillaume Dargaud <use_the_contact_form@www.gdargaud.net> - 2013-08-07 12:56 +0200
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-07 07:11 -0400
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-07 07:49 -0400
  Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc jadill33@gmail.com - 2013-08-07 07:39 -0700
    Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-08 14:03 -0700
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-13 21:41 +0300
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2013-08-13 19:34 +0000
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-13 18:52 -0500
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc "Scott Fluhrer" <sfluhrer@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-08-15 09:43 -0400
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2013-08-13 19:23 -0700
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-14 07:30 +0100
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-14 14:34 -0700
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-15 05:41 +0100
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2013-08-17 09:55 +0000
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 16:42 +0300
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2013-08-17 10:38 +0000
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-17 07:51 -0400
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-19 11:50 -0400
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-19 22:58 +0100
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-20 20:52 -0700
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-23 11:42 +0300
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-23 07:09 -0400
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-23 17:55 +0300
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-23 12:29 -0400
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-23 08:32 -0700
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2013-08-23 09:32 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-23 17:47 +0000
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-24 13:24 +0300
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-24 15:27 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc "osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2013-08-25 19:05 -0500
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-25 19:54 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-27 17:14 +0300
                [OT] Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-27 10:52 -0400
                Re: [OT] Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-27 18:43 +0300
                Re: [OT] Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-27 15:08 -0400
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc "osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2013-08-27 10:59 -0500
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-27 12:27 -0400
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc "osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2013-08-27 13:27 -0500
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-27 15:03 -0400
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc "osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2013-08-27 19:02 -0500
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-27 22:14 -0400
                OT:Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc "osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2013-08-28 07:36 -0500
                Re: OT:Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 11:14 -0400
                Re: OT:Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc "osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2013-08-28 10:59 -0500
                Re: OT:Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 12:46 -0400
                Re: OT:Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-28 21:13 +0300
                Re: OT:Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 20:20 -0400
                Re: OT:Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-08-28 18:07 +0100
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-28 21:10 +0300
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-28 21:08 +0300
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-27 12:21 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-08-28 04:07 +0100
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-24 13:38 -0700
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-25 12:50 +0300
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-26 12:54 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-26 17:05 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-27 17:17 +0300
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-27 08:33 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-27 14:02 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-27 18:51 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-29 09:34 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-29 17:06 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-31 16:52 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-09-01 13:26 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-09-01 14:08 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-09-02 12:41 -0700
  Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <gmail@jamesdowallen.nospam> - 2013-08-19 04:19 +0000
    Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Rosario1903 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-19 11:36 +0200
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <gmail@jamesdowallen.nospam> - 2013-08-19 12:52 +0000
    Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-19 09:19 -0400
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-19 06:38 -0700
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-19 09:51 -0400
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-19 09:59 -0700
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-19 15:26 -0400
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-19 15:28 -0400
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-19 19:15 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-20 07:26 -0400
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <gmail@jamesdowallen.nospam> - 2013-08-20 04:52 +0000
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-20 07:36 -0400
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2013-08-21 00:29 -0700
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <gmail@jamesdowallen.nospam> - 2013-08-21 11:35 +0000
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-21 08:30 -0400
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <gmail@jamesdowallen.nospam> - 2013-08-21 13:08 +0000
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-21 10:08 -0400
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Dow Allen <gmail@jamesdowallen.nospam> - 2013-08-21 14:41 +0000
    Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-19 11:03 -0700
  Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-25 10:15 -0700
    Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-08-25 22:03 +0100
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-25 15:35 -0700
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-25 18:56 -0400
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-25 19:53 -0700
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-26 14:13 -0700
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-26 17:23 -0400
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-08-26 02:18 +0100
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-08-25 21:25 -0400
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-27 17:03 +0300
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-08-27 14:45 -0700
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-28 21:18 +0300
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-08-28 03:36 +0100
    Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Noob <root@localhost> - 2013-09-03 17:37 +0200
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-09-03 14:05 -0400
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-09-03 20:11 +0000
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-09-03 16:29 -0400
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-09-03 23:14 +0000
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Noob <root@localhost> - 2013-09-04 07:28 +0200
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-09-04 08:12 -0400
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-09-03 17:56 -0700
        Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-05 15:17 +0300
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2013-09-05 06:22 -0700
          Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-09-05 08:20 -0700
            Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-06 15:13 +0300
              Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 13:23 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Noob <root@localhost> - 2013-09-07 08:20 +0200
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 01:06 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Chris DH <cdhorz@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 02:19 -0700
                Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-09-07 14:41 -0700
      Re: Random 64 bit number in stdc Noob <root@localhost> - 2013-09-04 09:32 +0200

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