[OT] words. Was: typedef ... refactored

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	[OT] words. Was: typedef ... refactored
Date	2020-08-16 20:08 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87mu2ucssm.fsf_-_@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <rh683a$oi0$1@dont-email.me> <4yyZG.1646292$6_j.1423379@fx37.ams4> <rh6n9t$o62$1@dont-email.me> <87bljdx9i2.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <rhbrh9$m9i$1@dont-email.me>

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David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

> On 14/08/2020 22:23, Keith Thompson wrote:
<cut>
>> The original meaning is "assumes the conclusion".  A common modern
>> meaning is "raises the question" (which makes more sense given the
>> English phrase).
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't agree here.  There is a single correct meaning of
> the phrase, and that correct meaning is still in use.  There is a common
> incorrect misuse of the phrase, but IMHO that is not a new meaning, it
> is simply a common mistake.
>
> As programmers, accuracy in what we write is important.  You are well
> aware of the potential difference between what a code "phrase"
> /actually/ means, and what some people want it to mean.
>
> In my mind, the same applies in writing English.  Obviously English is
> not as well specified as C, and there is enormous scope for variety and
> ambiguity.  But to me at least, it is important to be as accurate as I
> reasonably can.  And I encourage others to do so too.
>
> I am well aware that languages change over time - and one of the ways
> they do so is when enough people make a common mistake that it becomes
> the "new correct".  The phrase "the exception proves the rule" is a fine
> example of this - it has been used incorrectly so often that the
> original meaning is unlikely to be understood, and now we are left with
> an utterly pointless "meaning".  Change is inevitable - progress is not.
>  Perhaps one day the real meaning of "begs the question" will be lost
> deep enough that I'll have to accept that meaning has changed and we
> will have lost another subtle and interesting part of our language to
> the alter of ignorance and simplicity, but not today.

What is lost when a silly phrase takes on a more natural meaning?  You
can still say "that assumes your conclusion", just as you always could,
with the advantage of almost certainly not being misunderstood.

The correct use of obscure phrases is used by some as a proxy indicator
of education.  It can, sadly, form part of an intellectual culture that
intimidates and excludes -- the linguistic version of knowing which fork
to use!

You don't strike as being that sort of person, so I wonder why you don't
want to go with the flow?  Overall, the English language is getting
richer and more expressive, not less.  Personally, I'd avoid this cliché
altogether.  It's too tired to be used in good writing regardless of the
meaning.

By the way, two respected sources give the new meaning as the primary
one.  One of them gives it as the only meaning.

-- 
Ben.

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typedef ... refactored G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 01:07 -0700
  Re: typedef ... refactored G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 01:46 -0700
    Re: typedef ... refactored Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-08-09 08:09 -0400
      Re: typedef ... refactored Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-08-09 18:08 +0200
  Re: typedef ... refactored Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-09 09:29 +0000
  Re: typedef ... refactored Johann Klammer <klammerj@NOSPAM.a1.net> - 2020-08-09 13:29 +0200
  Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 13:53 +0200
    Re: typedef ... refactored Poprocks <please@replytogroup.com> - 2020-08-10 20:37 +0000
      Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-10 13:49 -0700
        Re: typedef ... refactored Poprocks <please@replytogroup.com> - 2020-08-10 23:09 +0000
          Re: typedef ... refactored Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-11 07:14 +0000
            Why not indeed??? (Was: typedef ... refactored) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2020-08-11 07:48 +0000
            Re: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-11 10:56 +0100
        Re: typedef ... refactored Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-08-28 04:08 -0700
      Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 08:10 +0200
        Re: typedef ... refactored Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 00:52 +0300
          Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 14:13 +0200
            Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-14 13:37 +0100
              Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 14:54 +0200
                Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-14 16:46 +0200
                Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-14 16:59 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-14 21:05 +0200
                Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-14 20:51 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-08-16 13:36 +0000
                Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-16 15:58 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-08-16 18:10 +0000
                Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 13:23 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-16 19:48 +0200
                [OT] words.  Was: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-16 20:08 +0100
                Re: [OT] words. Was: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-17 10:50 +0200
                Re: [OT] words. Was: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-17 12:00 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2020-08-17 17:51 +0300
                Re: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-17 16:06 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-17 10:48 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-17 19:36 +0000
                Re: typedef ... refactored Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-17 14:06 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-08-28 03:53 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored Kaz Kylheku <793-849-0957@kylheku.com> - 2020-08-28 15:30 +0000
                Re: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-29 02:24 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 18:37 +0200
                Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 10:29 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-14 21:10 +0200
                Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 12:32 -0700
  Re: typedef ... refactored G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 05:44 -0700
    Re: typedef ... refactored Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2020-08-09 08:12 -0700
      Re: typedef ... refactored G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 08:32 -0700
  Re: typedef ... refactored John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2020-08-12 11:45 -0700
    Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-12 19:59 +0100
    Re: typedef ... refactored Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-12 14:16 -0700
    Re: typedef ... refactored Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-08-28 05:05 -0700
  Re: typedef ... refactored Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 00:41 +0300

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