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Re: typedef ... refactored

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Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> writes:

> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>
>> On 14/08/2020 17:59, Bart wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> That begs the question of why they need their own namespace.
>>
>> (Nitpick - "begs the question" does not mean what you think it
>> means.)
>
> [...]
>
> Nitpick - there is no longer a widely agreed meaning of that
> phrase.  [..elaboration..]

I think you have a point, however how this statement is phrased
is somewhat misleading.

The phrase "begs the question" or "begging the question" does
have a widely agreed meaning.  The problem is there is not one
such meaning but two, depending on construction and usage.

The English language has many words and phrases with more than
one meaning, including cases where different meanings are
diametrically opposed.  A good example is "sanction":  does it
mean some sort of official okay and approval, or does it mean
some sort of negative response expressing disapproval?  The
answer is it can mean either of those, depending on phrasing
and context.

For "begging the question", there are two widely known usages
(both somewhat idiomatic, but that is incidental).  In most
cases though (and probably very nearly all cases), there is no
ambiguity because what construction is used will easily identify
either one or the other.  If someone says, "That begs the
question of why they need their own namespace", clearly what
they mean is that one question or assertion gives rise to a
related question.  If someone says, "That argument is begging
the question", clearly what they mean is that the argument is
circular or assumes the very thing the argument purports to
establish.  The two usages easily coexist without much strain,
because context almost always disambiguates which is which.

Personally I find the more modern usage (of prompting a related
question) rather peculiar or distasteful, because it is often
used as a surreptitious rhetorical device for changing the
subject away from a difficult topic and onto a topic more to the
speaker's liking.  However, just because I don't like it doesn't
mean I can't understand it, and in fact very much the opposite:
it is because I understand both usages and can distinguish
between them that gives rise to my respective reactions to the
two usages.

Incidentally, in politics the rhetorical device underlying the
modern usage occurs so frequently it has been given a name, "the
clubhouse turn".  On being asked a question about subject X, a
political candidate might reply, "The question we should be
asking is ...", and then go on to talk about subject Y, ignoring
the original question and sometimes even the entire subject of X.
Very clearly a case of someone begging one question so as to
avoid an earlier one.

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Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 14:13 +0200
  Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-14 13:37 +0100
    Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 14:54 +0200
      Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-14 16:46 +0200
        Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-14 16:59 +0100
          Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-14 21:05 +0200
            Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-14 20:51 +0100
              Re: typedef ... refactored antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-08-16 13:36 +0000
                Re: typedef ... refactored Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-08-16 15:58 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-08-16 18:10 +0000
            Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 13:23 -0700
              Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-16 19:48 +0200
                [OT] words.  Was: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-16 20:08 +0100
                Re: [OT] words. Was: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-17 10:50 +0200
                Re: [OT] words. Was: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-17 12:00 +0100
              Re: typedef ... refactored Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2020-08-17 17:51 +0300
                Re: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-17 16:06 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-17 10:48 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-17 19:36 +0000
                Re: typedef ... refactored Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-17 14:06 -0700
              Re: typedef ... refactored Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-08-28 03:53 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored Kaz Kylheku <793-849-0957@kylheku.com> - 2020-08-28 15:30 +0000
                Re: typedef ... refactored Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-29 02:24 +0100
                Re: typedef ... refactored Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-09-02 23:10 -0700
                Re: typedef ... refactored Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 04:11 -0700
        Re: typedef ... refactored Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 18:37 +0200
        Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 10:29 -0700
          Re: typedef ... refactored David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-14 21:10 +0200
            Re: typedef ... refactored Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 12:32 -0700

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