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Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail

From Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail
Date 2026-01-08 09:40 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <868qe8ngu2.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <20251228024431.00000016@yahoo.com> <10iqfpd$2g8io$1@paganini.bofh.team> <20251228123533.000062a2@yahoo.com> <20260105142144.000074ac@yahoo.com> <10jldr2$1khpu$1@paganini.bofh.team>

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antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:

> Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I experimented a bit more (in fact, more like a lot more) with
>> test batteries of L?Ecuyer.  It led me to conclusion that occasional
>> failure in the either middle or big battery means nothing.
>> Sometimes even cripto-quality PRNG does not pass one or another test.
>> Then you try to reproduce it and see that with any other seed that you
>> try a failure does not happen.
>> All in all, it makes me more suspect of PRNGs that consistently pass
>> both batteries with various seed.  I start to see it as a sign of
>> PRNG being rigged to pass tests.
>
> Well, that depends on the tests and threshhold in the tests.
> Some tests when fed with trurly random source will produce produce
> very small variation of the results.  With generous threshhold
> such test will essentially never fail for trurly random source.
> OTOH when expected variation of the results is larger and
> threshhold is tight, then trurly random source will fail the
> test from time to time.  And if you test long enough you should
> be able to estimate probability of failure and possibly compare
> is with theoretical result if available.

It's inherent in the nature of statistical testing that every
so often a statistical test will "fail" even for a truly random
input.  An input source that never fails can also be indicative
of a low quality source (and perhaps one that was tuned to the
particular set of tests being done).  It took me a while to
learn that the results of a PRNG test suite should not be seen
as purely binary.

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srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-22 08:48 +0000
  Re: srand(0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-12-22 06:44 -0500
    Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-22 13:18 +0100
      Re: srand(0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-12-22 12:13 -0500
        Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-22 18:41 +0100
          Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-22 20:45 +0200
            Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-22 21:16 +0000
            Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-22 22:19 +0100
            Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-22 22:57 +0100
              Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-23 11:18 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-23 10:54 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-23 13:50 +0200
                Re: srand(0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-12-23 18:29 -0500
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-23 16:30 -0800
            Re: srand(0) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-12-23 17:54 +0000
              Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-24 00:08 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-24 02:02 +0000
                Re: srand(0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-12-23 23:43 -0500
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-24 05:34 +0000
                Re: srand(0) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-12-24 09:00 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-24 12:12 +0200
                Article of Melissa O'Nail (Was: srand(0)) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-28 02:44 +0200
                Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-12-28 05:38 +0000
                Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-28 12:35 +0200
                Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-05 14:21 +0200
                Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-07 10:51 +0000
                Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-08 14:03 +0200
                Re: Article of Melissa O'Nail Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-08 09:40 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-08 09:26 -0800
                Re: srand(0) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-12-24 13:48 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-07 08:41 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-08 01:06 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 05:26 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-02-03 16:37 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-17 23:47 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-02-18 11:21 +0000
                Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-02-19 10:01 +0100
                Re: srand(0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-02-19 14:33 -0500
                Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-02-19 20:47 +0100
                Re: srand(0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-02-20 16:01 -0500
                Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-02-21 11:09 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 14:39 -0800
                Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-02-20 09:16 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-02-23 08:32 -0500
                Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-02-23 16:05 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-02-23 19:59 +0200
                Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-02-23 20:06 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-02-23 15:24 -0500
                Re: srand(0) Axel Reichert <mail@axel-reichert.de> - 2026-02-24 07:08 +0100
                Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-02-24 10:24 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Axel Reichert <mail@axel-reichert.de> - 2026-02-26 19:13 +0100
              Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-24 05:22 -0600
                Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-24 23:09 -0600
                Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-25 09:51 +0100
                Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-25 04:24 -0600
              Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-07 07:50 -0800
            Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-07 07:46 -0800
              Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-07 18:14 +0200
          Re: srand(0) Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2025-12-22 19:16 +0000
            Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-22 22:35 +0100
      Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-23 07:24 +0000
        Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-23 09:59 +0100
          Re: srand(0) Michael Bäuerle <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> - 2025-12-23 11:09 +0100
            Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-23 14:49 +0000
          Re: srand(0) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-23 16:13 +0000
            Re: srand(0) richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2025-12-23 19:05 +0000
        Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-23 02:16 -0800
          Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-23 14:47 +0000
        Re: srand(0) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-23 16:08 +0000
          Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-24 15:44 +0000
    Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-23 07:17 +0000
      Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-12-23 08:25 +0100
        Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-23 14:45 +0000
          Re: srand(0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-12-23 19:15 +0100
  Re: srand(0) John McCue <jmclnx@gmail.com.invalid> - 2025-12-23 00:39 +0000
    Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-23 02:17 +0000
      Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-23 14:55 +0000
        Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-24 23:35 -0600
          Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-26 08:23 +0000
            Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-26 14:48 -0600
              Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-26 15:12 -0600
    Re: srand(0) Ike Naar <ike@sdf.org> - 2025-12-23 06:49 +0000
      Re: srand(0) John McCue <jmclnx@gmail.com.invalid> - 2025-12-23 20:37 +0000
        Re: srand(0) Ike Naar <ike@sdf.org> - 2025-12-24 15:22 +0000
    Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-23 07:25 +0000
      Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-24 06:16 +0000
        Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-24 15:21 +0000
          Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-24 19:00 +0000
            Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-25 03:07 -0600
              Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-25 19:31 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-25 21:14 +0100
                Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-25 15:29 -0600
                Re: srand(0) Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-12-25 23:25 -0500
                Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-25 23:41 -0600
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-26 05:42 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-12-26 01:52 -0500
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-26 07:56 +0000
                Re: srand(0) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-12-26 04:48 -0600
      Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-24 10:51 +0200
        Re: srand(0) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-12-24 00:59 -0800
        Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-24 15:28 +0000
          Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-24 17:44 +0200
            Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-24 16:17 +0000
              Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-24 17:53 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-24 17:27 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-24 17:33 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-24 20:16 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-25 02:01 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-25 03:17 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-26 08:13 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-25 04:30 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-25 09:10 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-26 08:08 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-30 06:07 +0000
                Re: srand(0) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-30 18:42 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-31 02:01 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-31 03:10 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-31 03:28 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-31 09:37 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-01 07:32 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-01 19:02 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-01 19:20 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-01 21:53 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-01 23:50 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-02 14:32 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-02 16:18 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-02 20:52 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-02 20:46 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2026-01-03 04:08 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-03 04:39 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-03 14:24 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-03 20:38 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-30 19:37 -0800
                Re: srand(0) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-31 17:24 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 15:17 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-12-31 12:30 -0500
                Re: srand(0) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-12-31 18:42 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-12-31 15:07 -0500
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-31 22:18 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-31 20:55 +0000
                Re: srand(0) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-12-31 22:57 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 16:00 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-01 01:03 +0000
                Re: srand(0) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-01-01 14:05 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-01 19:03 +0000
                Re: srand(0) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-01-01 20:28 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 15:29 -0800
                Re: srand(0) highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-01 00:31 +0100
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 16:05 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-31 15:29 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-31 20:52 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 15:14 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-05 20:00 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 15:03 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-30 19:35 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-31 04:51 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-31 15:15 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-31 20:51 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 15:00 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-01 01:45 +0200
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 16:34 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-01 07:23 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2026-01-01 02:01 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-01 02:29 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-30 06:34 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-30 14:05 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-28 05:51 +0000
            Re: srand(0) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-24 17:08 +0000
    Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-07 07:39 -0800
      Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-07 13:54 -0800
        Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-08 15:34 +0000
          Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-08 14:44 -0800
            Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-09 06:06 +0000
              Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-08 22:46 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-09 22:38 +0000
                Re: srand(0) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-09 23:27 +0000
                Re: srand(0) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-09 17:09 -0800
                Re: srand(0) Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-10 19:44 +0000
        Re: srand(0) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-09 00:36 -0800
  Re: srand(0) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-12-23 11:04 +0100
  Re: srand(0) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-12-23 21:44 -0800
    Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-24 15:41 +0000
      Re: srand(0) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-24 18:04 +0100
        Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2025-12-25 05:41 +0000
  Re: srand(0) Michael Sanders <porkchop@invalid.foo> - 2026-01-08 02:57 +0000

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