Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan

From	Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan
Date	2023-04-16 06:12 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<864jpg2coh.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <87zg7n89zw.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <44v8ib15yl.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <87sfdf6ooe.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <u0ior1$3oeqh$3@dont-email.me> <jkdXL.2028861$9sn9.1277919@fx17.iad>

Show all headers | View raw

Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:

> On 4/4/23 11:10 PM, Opus wrote:
>
>> Le 05/04/2023 at 04:36, Ben Bacarisse a ecrit:
>>
>>> I don't think the code was ever perfectly reasonable, but I took
>>> their point to be simply that it was not undefined as it will
>>> become.
>>
>> Yeah, to be fair, in standard versions before C17, this was a bit of
>> a grey area.  While the behavior of realloc (like malloc and calloc)
>> *regarding the new allocation* was clearly implementation-defined,
>> the behavior as to the old object passed as parameter was, at best,
>> implicit.
>>
>> "The realloc function deallocates the old object pointed to
>> by ptr and returns a pointer to a new object that has the
>> size specified by size."
>>
>> The implicit part is that we could assume from the above that
>> whatever the size parameter is, the realloc function starts by
>> deallocating the old object, and what happens after that is
>> implementation-defined if size is 0.
>>
>> C17 makes it more explicit and definitely makes it clear that even
>> the deallocation is implementation-defined in this case.  So this
>> was at least known for sure with C17 that the deallocation itself
>> was implementation-defined.  Nothing new.
>>
>> But the old phrasing was so unexplicit that it was reasonable not
>> to count on any particular behavior.
>>
>> Reading the article and the point about the cost of the standard,
>> it's not completely clear the author(s) had really read the
>> previous versions very attentively anyway.
>>
>> What it really shows IMO and is backed up by experience is that
>> many, if not most C developers have never read the C std anyway and
>> many assume they know C from their own experience and the behavior
>> of the particular tools they have used.
>>
>> Whether this would change if the standard became a free download
>> remains to be seen.  I am skeptical.  Drafts are not hard to get
>> ahold of and late drafts are usually close enough to the final
>> text.
>
> The issue is that realloc DOESN'T start by deallocating the old
> buffer, but must allocate the new buffer (possibly just resizing
> the existing buffer in place), and then copying the data if
> needed.
>
> One key point is that if the new allocation failed, then the old
> buffer was guaranteed to still be allocated and was usable, and
> this was indicated by returning a null pointer.
>
> We thus have a conflict in the definition of the API for realloc.
> If a zero size parameter means act like free, then realloc has no
> non-null value it can return to indicate "success", so needs to
> return null, but that means that a null return doesn't mean the
> input pointer is still valid.
>
> Thus the speciification, and code trying hard to conform to that
> specification, needs a lot of words/code to handle the size 0
> final case.

This summary description is somewhere between misleading and wrong.
It implies some things that aren't true, and it glosses over some
aspects that are critical to understanding what actually transpired.

In the original C standard (ANSI C, aka C89), there is no question
that a realloc() call with a size of zero will free() a non-null
argument.  It is implementation-defined what value is returned in
such cases:  the return value can be a null pointer, or it can be
a "unique pointer", which means a pointer value distinct from any
other pointer value obtained by other means (including specifically
pointer values returned by other calls to malloc(), realloc(), etc).
But the key point is that the original object is always free()'d,
and there is no question or ambiguity about that.

Ten years later, in C99, the description for realloc() changed.  The
C99 description says "If memory for the new object cannot be
allocated, the old object is not deallocated and its value is
unchanged," and does not call out a size of zero as a specific case.
A reasonable conjecture is that some implementation was not
following the C89/C90 requirement to free the old space in some
cases where the new size is zero, and rather than sticking to their
guns the ISO C committee changed the rule to accommodate these
non-conforming implementations.  (I should add that I have not gone
looking for evidence to support this conjecture.  Still it does seem
reasonable as a conjecture.)

But notice something else.  The revised wording says "If memory for
the new object cannot be allocated, ...".  But whenever the new size
is no larger than the old size, memory for "the new object" always
/can/ be allocated, because if nothing else the original pointer
could be returned unchanged.  There is even an explicit statement in
the standard that the pointer to the new object "may have the same
value as a pointer to the old object".  Wording in the C99 standard
doesn't allow the possibility that realloc() with a size of zero
could misbehave in the sense that a null pointer could be returned
but the old object was not free()'d (in the as-if sense).

To be fair, presumably this consequence was unintentional.  The C17
standard gives a tacit admission of that oversight in the 'Returns'
portion of the realloc() description, changing "or a null pointer if
the new object /could/ not be allocated" to "or a null pointer if
the new object /has/ not been allocated" (emphasis added).  Still,
for more than a decade after C99, and years after C11, a reasonable
reading of the C standard could give the impression that realloc()
with a size of zero would never give a "faulty" return value, and
the old pointer value passed to realloc() could safely be forgotten.

> Also, this goes back to the idea that malloc could return unique
> 0-byte allocations as an implementation option (because some chose
> to to that way back when).  This is a option that has some uses,
> but also makes some code harder to maintain.  And for such a
> system, a call with a 0 size would return a non-null pointer, so
> realloc(ptr, 0) wasn't the equivalent of a free, as it returned a
> pointer that should eventually be actually free'd.

The idea that unique-pointers-for-size-zero makes code harder to
maintain is backwards.  Presumably if one knew in advance that the
allocation size is zero either malloc() would not be called or
rather than calling realloc() the code would just call free()
directly.  The point is what happens when the size is the result
of a calculation, so we don't know in advance that it will be zero.
In that case what we /want/ in a non-null pointer, pointing to an
object that corresponds to the size requested.

Personally I am not a fan of the "unique pointer" style of malloc()
and realloc(), but it is consistent and from that perspective makes
code easier to maintain, not harder.  That is of course assuming no
"faulty" return values for realloc() with a size of zero.  The ISO C
committee should have the courage to require realloc() with a size
of zero simply cannot "fail", and always returns a non-null value
on those implementations for which malloc(0) can return a non-null
value.  The proposal that realloc() with a size of zero be undefined
behavior is at best remarkably shortsighted.

Thread

"Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:20 -0500
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Jim Kelly <invalid@invalid.net> - 2023-04-04 04:00 +0100
    Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 14:49 -0500
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Rene Kita <mail@rkta.de> - 2023-04-04 09:56 +0000
    Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-04-04 12:20 +0000
      Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-04 13:50 +0000
      Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Rene Kita <mail@rkta.de> - 2023-04-05 08:49 +0000
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-04-05 09:23 +0000
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 13:07 +0000
            (realloc) Angels and pins (Was: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-04-05 14:12 +0000
              Re: (realloc) Angels and pins (Was: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 17:09 +0000
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 20:16 +0100
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 21:03 +0000
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 04:05 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-05 17:05 +0200
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-04 11:30 +0000
    Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 14:51 -0500
      Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 01:10 +0100
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 00:42 +0000
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2023-04-05 02:55 +0200
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 03:01 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 13:29 +0000
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-05 17:15 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-05 15:27 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 10:40 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 18:55 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-06 00:37 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 17:40 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-12 05:46 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-06 12:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-04-06 05:42 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-07 12:16 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-04-07 11:38 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-09 17:04 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-09 19:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 09:45 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 14:52 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 17:29 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:48 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 18:10 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:19 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:55 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 10:41 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:22 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-04-10 21:22 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 14:22 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-10 22:36 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-04-11 00:11 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:34 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 15:37 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:57 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 17:26 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 14:27 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 18:45 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 04:50 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 15:58 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:08 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 17:27 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 04:47 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 10:26 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 14:51 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:20 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 15:35 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:04 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 17:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:24 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-04-11 16:17 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-04-11 18:13 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-04-11 17:58 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-09 12:41 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 09:31 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 09:46 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 16:29 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 16:37 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:26 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 17:43 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:19 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 18:35 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-04-10 10:02 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 20:14 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:34 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ike Naar <ike@sdf.org> - 2023-04-10 21:47 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-10 23:04 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-04-11 01:08 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:26 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-04-11 02:43 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-11 15:14 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:35 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 12:09 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 19:46 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 22:44 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-12 09:46 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-12 02:35 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-13 22:26 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-08-09 06:12 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 13:10 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 19:11 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-10 17:22 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 19:33 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 19:41 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-10 18:13 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:30 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 10:53 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:25 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:25 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:13 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 20:27 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:54 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 21:01 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 19:06 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 21:20 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 19:46 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 13:17 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 13:16 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 14:54 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 20:44 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 05:01 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-11 11:27 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:41 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-11 12:50 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-12 09:51 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-12 09:12 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:58 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:54 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:21 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 17:58 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 05:31 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:50 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 12:44 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-09 20:19 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 12:55 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-09 21:44 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 19:53 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 20:33 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-16 07:18 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 12:53 -0700
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-06 12:30 +0000
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-08 18:46 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-09 19:35 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-07-20 09:07 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-07-20 22:35 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2023-07-22 12:54 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-07-22 22:04 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2023-07-24 10:44 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-07-22 16:28 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2023-07-24 08:38 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-07-24 18:55 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) - 2023-07-26 11:30 +0300
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-07-26 19:28 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-08-07 13:08 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-08-15 12:01 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-08-28 15:49 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-08-28 23:42 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-08-29 00:51 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-08-29 01:20 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-09-05 18:24 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-04-17 09:25 +0300
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-18 11:56 +0000
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-05-02 07:12 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-05-07 09:37 +0300
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-07-20 09:09 -0700
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lowell Gilbert <lgusenet@be-well.ilk.org> - 2023-04-04 21:19 -0400
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 03:36 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2023-04-05 05:10 +0200
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-04-05 07:54 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2023-04-05 21:31 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-16 06:12 -0700
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 09:20 -0700
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 10:07 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 20:23 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 21:20 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-06 17:03 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-06 20:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-07 00:25 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-07-19 08:56 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-06 19:40 -0700
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-04-08 02:37 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-08 21:04 +0100
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-05-02 06:22 -0700
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2023-08-09 16:00 +0200
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2023-08-29 04:45 -0700

csiph-web