Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan
Date	2023-07-20 22:35 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<u9ccrl$i2q$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<u0fn0g$34scf$1@dont-email.me> <86v8i54yk5.fsf@linuxsc.com> <u0v426$df3$2@reader2.panix.com> <86a5vq1s8y.fsf@linuxsc.com>

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In article <86a5vq1s8y.fsf@linuxsc.com>,
Tim Rentsch  <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>
>> In article <86v8i54yk5.fsf@linuxsc.com>,
>> Tim Rentsch  <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think you misunderstood my comment.  I didn't mean to say
>>> anything about what the authors say about the evolution of
>>> realloc().  I meant only that the code they gave works just fine
>>> (not counting the problem when 'sizeof (int) == 1' that Ben B
>>> pointed out) -- importantly, under the assumptions that the
>>> authors explicitly stated -- and that they didn't say anything
>>> about whether the code is portable or well-defined if considered
>>> outside of those assumptions.  The authors may have some opinions
>>> about whether the code /should/ work in general, but they don't
>>> make any claims about whether it /does/ work in general, and that
>>> point is the only one I mean to address.
>>
>> No, I understood that, but I disagree:  I believe that they were
>> trying to make a more general statement, beyond simply the
>> circumstances they outlined.
>
>Then I think that either you are misreading what they say
>or you are seeing something that isn't there.  I went back
>and thoroughly reviewed the paper, carefully reading each
>sentence.  In no case did any statement fall outside the
>bounds I outlined above.

Maybe I am; truthfully, I haven't given it (the article) much
thought since it came up months ago now.

Let's look at the relevant section of the article (thankfully it
has been edited since initially published to remove some of the
more offensive language: the slur about "neurodivergent ideas"
is gone), with some commentary about where I'm coming from
interspersed:

|The C89 and C99 standards committees strongly recommended that
|allocation interfaces malloc, calloc, and realloc return a null
|pointer in response to zero-byte requests.3,6 This implies that
|realloc(p,0) should unconditionally free(p) and return NULL: No
|new allocation happens in this case, so there's no possibility
|of an allocation failure. For brevity, let "zero-null" denote
|allocator implementations that comply with the C89/C99
|guidance.

Ok.  Here the author suggests that the C89 and C99 standards
suggest that `malloc(0)` really ought to return NULL.

|The Swiss-Army-knife aspect of realloc is daunting at first,
|but this interface rewards patient study. Soon you realize that
|zero-null realloc was thoughtfully designed to enable elegant
|dynamic arrays that do exactly the right thing under all
|circumstances, obviating the need for clunky and error-prone
|code to handle grow-from-zero and shrink-to-zero as special
|cases.

This seems specious, at best.  Doug McIlroy implemented realloc
and this is the opposite of what he requested when it was
standardized:
https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2015-September/007452.html

Note that the original author of `realloc` requested that
`realloc(0)` retun something other than NULL.  That directly
contradicts the author's suggestion that `realloc` was
"thoughtfully designed to enable elegant dynamic arrays".

Moreover, the `realloc0` function that was discussed here does
not strike me as either "clunky" or "error-prone", and makes the
authors' code well-defined on any implementation.  Given their
noxious code style, it's litearlly a one-line fix.  Sure, I
suppose it's subjective?

|Figure 1 illustrates idiomatic realloc via a simple stack that
|grows with every push() and shrinks with every pop(). Pointer S
|and counter N (lines 1 and 2) represent the stack: S points to
|an array of N strictly positive ints. Because they are
|statically allocated, initially the pointer is NULL and the
|counter is zero, indicating an empty stack. Function resize
|(lines 4-10) resizes the stack to a given new capacity,
|checking for arithmetic overflow (line 6) before calling
|realloc and checking the return value for memory exhaustion
|(line 8). Allocation failure is inferred when a nonzero new
|size is requested but NULL is returned; zero-null realloc also
|returns NULL when the second argument is zero, but this does
|not indicate an allocation failure because no allocation was
|attempted. (Checking errno doesn't enable portable code to
|detect allocation failure because the C standards don't say
|how out-of-memory affects errno.) Thanks to zero-null realloc's
|versatility, the resize function need not consider whether the
|stack is growing from zero or shrinking to zero or re-sizing in
|some other way; everything Just Works regardless.

This paragraph is the root of my objection; particularly the
first sentence.  This code is described as "idiomatic", but
according to whom?  Moreover, that sentence doesn't explicitly
mention "zero-null realloc"; they defer discussion of that
until later in the paragraph (if it were me, I'd have prefaced
the entire thing with something like, "For implementations that
provide zero-null semantics, ...").  Critically, they _don't
describe what happens outside of their zero-null semantic
model_.  Would replacing the `realloc` call in their code with
the ternary expression discussed earlier in this thread not be
"idiomatic"?  Could an argument be made that it is even more
idiomatic to use an `if` statement here to guard against the
`realloc(0)` case?

They go on:

|The code of figure 1 follows a few simple rules implicit in the
|semantics of zero-null realloc. Functions push and pop (lines
|12-23) access the stack only via subscripts on S, because
|realloc may move the array to a different location in memory.
|They never dereference S when N is zero. The resize function
|resists the temptation of reckless S = realloc(S,...), which
|destroys the entry point into the array when allocation fails,
|thereby leaking memory and losing data.

It strikes me that every thing they mention in this paragraph is
equally applicable outside of the zero-null semantic model they
defined.

|I've been seeing code resembling figure 1 for 30 years,
|starting with the work of an older schoolmate who had bothered
|to read the fine manual; the clarity and simplicity of his code
|left a deep impression. In the decades since then I have
|repeatedly found idiomatic realloc in serious production code,
|usually while scanning for p = realloc(p,...) bugs.

What does this mean?  What fine manual did the author's
schoolmate read?  What does it mean to have used this code (or
something rather like it for 30 years) if not that it was
portable?  Were the authors using the same platform the entire
time, with no upgrades?  I very much doubt it.

|Imagine, then, my dismay when I learned that C23 declares
|realloc(ptr,0) to be undefined behavior, thereby pulling the
|rug out from under a widespread and exemplary pattern
|deliberately condoned by C89 through C11. So much for stare
|decisis. Compile idiomatic realloc code as C23 and the compiler
|might maul the source in most astonishing ways and your machine
|could ignite at runtime.

"...thereby pulling the rug out from under a widespread and
exemplary pattern deliberately condoned by C89 through C11."
Say what now?  This pattern has been implementation defined-
defined, and thus always fraught, for decades now.  The scenario
mentioned (upgrading a compiler or library) could blow the code
up with C11, too; granted, the failure case might not be so
dramatic as spontaneous combustion; recompilation or relinking
with an upgraded compiler or library could change to "zero
non-null" semantics and mask allocation failures.

I think a reasonable reader could see the language and use of
words like, "widespread", "exemplary" and "condoned" by earlier
standards, not to mention "idiomatic" and conclude the authors
suggest there is some level of portability to this code that is
not, in fact there.  For the record, a reasonable reader could
conclude the opposite, as well; I merely suggest that it is
ambiguous.

When combined with their incorrect statements about the
motivation behind the design of `realloc` and the overall tone
of the article, I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I did talk to JeanHyde about the motivation, and it sure seemed
reasonable to me: the root issue has caused production failures
in the wild.  In other words, code like the authors' "exemplary"
example caused real outages.  Everyone agreed that the situation
with regard to making `realloc` UB sucked, but it was the best
of a set of bad options.  The people on the committee are not
ignorant fools, after all.

	- Dan C.

Thread

"Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:20 -0500
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Jim Kelly <invalid@invalid.net> - 2023-04-04 04:00 +0100
    Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 14:49 -0500
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Rene Kita <mail@rkta.de> - 2023-04-04 09:56 +0000
    Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-04-04 12:20 +0000
      Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-04 13:50 +0000
      Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Rene Kita <mail@rkta.de> - 2023-04-05 08:49 +0000
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-04-05 09:23 +0000
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 13:07 +0000
            (realloc) Angels and pins (Was: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-04-05 14:12 +0000
              Re: (realloc) Angels and pins (Was: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 17:09 +0000
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 20:16 +0100
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 21:03 +0000
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 04:05 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-05 17:05 +0200
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-04 11:30 +0000
    Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 14:51 -0500
      Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 01:10 +0100
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 00:42 +0000
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2023-04-05 02:55 +0200
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 03:01 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 13:29 +0000
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-05 17:15 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-05 15:27 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 10:40 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-05 18:55 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-06 00:37 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 17:40 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-12 05:46 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-06 12:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-04-06 05:42 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-07 12:16 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-04-07 11:38 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-09 17:04 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-09 19:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 09:45 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 14:52 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 17:29 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:48 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 18:10 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:19 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:55 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 10:41 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:22 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-04-10 21:22 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 14:22 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-10 22:36 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-04-11 00:11 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:34 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 15:37 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:57 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 17:26 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 14:27 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 18:45 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 04:50 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 15:58 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:08 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 17:27 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 04:47 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 10:26 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 14:51 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:20 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 15:35 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:04 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 17:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:24 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-04-11 16:17 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-04-11 18:13 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-04-11 17:58 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-09 12:41 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 09:31 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 09:46 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 16:29 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 16:37 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:26 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 17:43 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 12:19 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 18:35 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-04-10 10:02 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 20:14 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:34 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ike Naar <ike@sdf.org> - 2023-04-10 21:47 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-10 23:04 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-04-11 01:08 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:26 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-04-11 02:43 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-11 15:14 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:35 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 12:09 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 19:46 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 22:44 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-12 09:46 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-12 02:35 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-13 22:26 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-08-09 06:12 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 13:10 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 19:11 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-10 17:22 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 19:33 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 19:41 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-04-10 18:13 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:30 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 10:53 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:25 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:25 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:13 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 20:27 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 11:54 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 21:01 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 19:06 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 21:20 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-10 19:46 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 13:17 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 13:16 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 14:54 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 20:44 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 05:01 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-11 11:27 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-11 11:41 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-11 12:50 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-12 09:51 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-12 09:12 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:58 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:54 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-04-10 11:21 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2023-04-10 17:58 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-11 05:31 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-10 09:50 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 12:44 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-09 20:19 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 12:55 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-09 21:44 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-09 19:53 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 20:33 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-16 07:18 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 12:53 -0700
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-06 12:30 +0000
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-08 18:46 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-09 19:35 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-07-20 09:07 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-07-20 22:35 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2023-07-22 12:54 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-07-22 22:04 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2023-07-24 10:44 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-07-22 16:28 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2023-07-24 08:38 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-07-24 18:55 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) - 2023-07-26 11:30 +0300
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-07-26 19:28 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-08-07 13:08 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-08-15 12:01 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-08-28 15:49 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-08-28 23:42 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-08-29 00:51 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-08-29 01:20 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-09-05 18:24 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-04-17 09:25 +0300
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-18 11:56 +0000
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-05-02 07:12 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-05-07 09:37 +0300
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-07-20 09:09 -0700
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Lowell Gilbert <lgusenet@be-well.ilk.org> - 2023-04-04 21:19 -0400
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 03:36 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2023-04-05 05:10 +0200
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-04-05 07:54 -0400
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2023-04-05 21:31 +0200
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-16 06:12 -0700
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 09:20 -0700
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 10:07 -0700
          Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-05 20:23 +0100
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-05 21:20 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-06 17:03 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2023-04-06 20:34 +0000
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-07 00:25 +0100
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-07-19 08:56 -0700
                Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-06 19:40 -0700
            Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-04-08 02:37 -0700
              Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-04-08 21:04 +0100
        Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-05-02 06:22 -0700
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2023-08-09 16:00 +0200
  Re: "Catch-23: The New C Standard,Sets the World on Fire" by Terence Kelly with Special Guest Borer Yekai Pan Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2023-08-29 04:45 -0700

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