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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #596382
| From | The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity, sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? |
| Date | 2022-11-28 14:38 -0800 |
| Organization | The Starmaker Organization |
| Message-ID | <63853876.232E@ix.netcom.com> (permalink) |
| References | (20 earlier) <tlu17n$1f7v9$1@dont-email.me> <77dfe441-5edc-473c-9cf5-0a481ed1477an@googlegroups.com> <tlvkc2$1lt4f$1@dont-email.me> <b9d55890-6572-4e59-a97d-014b366dc5a6n@googlegroups.com> <6383C594.1837@ix.netcom.com> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
The Starmaker wrote: > > patdolan wrote: > > > > On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 4:15:01 AM UTC-8, Paul B. Andersen wrote: > > > Den 27.11.2022 05:24, skrev patdolan: > > > > On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 1:42:18 PM UTC-8, Paul B. Andersen wrote: > > > >> Listen: > > > >> November 26, 2022 I said: > > > >> "Paul will OBSERVE that Big Ben's little hand makes 730.5 revolutions > > > >> while the little hand of his wristwatch makes 1461 revolutions." > > > >> Of course this means that Paul will observe that the little hand > > > >> on his wristwatch makes 1461 revolutions while the Earth makes one > > > >> orbit around the Sun and Big Ben's little hand makes 730.5 revolutions. > > > >> > > > >> If you had read this, why do you then have to ask if I agree to this: > > > >> "From Paul's point of view the little hand on Paul's wristwatch makes > > > >> 1461 revolutions for ever revolution the earth makes around the sun." ? > > > >> > > > >> Is your point that "From Paul's point of view" is different > > > >> from "Paul will OBSERVE"? > > > >> > > > >> "From Paul's point of view" is less precise than OBSERVE, the meaning > > > >> of which I thoroughly explained, and you claimed to accept. > > > >> > > > > Good. You explicitly concur that, after accounting for longitudinal Doppler, distant Paul will count 1461 revolutions of the little hand on his wristwatch for every revolution of the earth around the sun. > > > While earthling Pat counts 730.5 revolutions. That is to say that for > > > Paul the earth's orbital velocity is half the value that it is for Pat. > > > But judging by the quote below, which you made farther up the thread, > > > you seem to be saying that this difference in the earth's orbital > > > velocity is simply some sort of artifact of special relativity and has > > > no further consequences for physical reality. > > > Doppler has nothing to do with the observation, but let us use it > > > as an example. If you hear the Doppler shifted sound of > > > the whistle of a reseeding train, then the frequency you hear > > > is not an artefact, it is real. But that doesn't mean that > > > your presence has affected the whistle in any way. > > > > > > Your state of motion (relative to the train) has a physical > > > consequence for what you hear, but what you hear has no > > > physical consequence for the whistle. > > > > > > In other words: > > > The observations have physical consequences for the observer > > > (what his instruments show is no illusion), but the observer's > > > observations have no physical consequences for the observed > > > object. > > > > > > This should be blatantly obvious for any thinking person, > > > so why is it so hard to grasp? > > > > > > > > "Everybody (now including Pat Dolan) will agree to the following: > > > > > > > > The state of motion of an arbitrary observer can't affect > > > > the observed object, but it can affect the observer's > > > > observations of the object. > > > > > > > > No consistent theory of physics can claim otherwise. > > > Yes. > > > > > > Let us sum it up (for the last time): > > > > > > The earthling Pat can with his local clock Big Ben measure > > > that the little hand of Big Ben makes 730.5 revolutions, > > > that is 365.25â‹…2â‹…12â‹…60â‹…60 seconds or a year, while the Earth > > > makes one orbit around the Sun. This is an objective fact. > > > The state of motion of an arbitrary observer like Paul > > > can not affect the rate of Big Ben or the orbital velocity > > > of the Earth. > > > > > > Paul's state of motion can affect his observations > > > of Big Ben and the Earth. So Paul will OBSERVE > > > Big Ben to run slow by a factor of two so that Big Ben's > > > little hand makes 730.5 revolutions while the little hand > > > of his wristwatch makes 1461 revolutions, that is > > > 365.25â‹…2â‹…2â‹…12â‹…60â‹…60 seconds or 2 years. > > > > > > > > > Paul knows that his wristwatch run with normal speed according > > > to the SI definition, that is it advances 1 second per second. > > > This is an objective fact. > > > The state of motion of an arbitrary observer like Pat > > > can not affect the rate of Paul's wristwatch. > > > > > > Pat's state of motion can affect his observations of > > > Paul's wristwatch. So Pat will OBSERVE that Paul's wristwatch > > > run slow by a factor of two so that the little hand of Paul's > > > wristwatch makes 730.5 revolutions while Big Ben's own little > > > hand makes 1461 revolutions, that is 365.25â‹…2â‹…2â‹…12â‹…60â‹…60 seconds > > > or 2 years. > > > > > > That's why: > > > > > > > > It would obviously be ridiculous to claim that according to SR: > > > > "If a distant observer was travelling at .866 c relative to > > > > the solar system along the line that is co-linear with the sun's > > > > axis of rotation, then the Earth's gravity HAD to diminish as 0.5." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me ask you Paul, is the twin's paradox obviously ridiculous? The difference in the flow rate of time for each twin, caused by their relative velocity, is critical in that Einsteinian fairy tale and has physical consequences for each twin. Is the ladder/barn paradox obviously ridiculous? Or is the barn's frame of reference "more real" than the ladder's? What would Einstein say? > > > It is not the relative velocity between the twins that matter. > > > > > > See 2.3 in: > > > https://paulba.no/pdf/TwinsByMetric.pdf > > > > > > Note that twin A isn't mentioned in the calculation > > > of how much B will age between the two events start and stop. > > > That is because what A does, doesn't affect twin B in any way. > > > B ages 9.91 years because his acceleration history is as it is. > > > > > > A is assumed to be inertial, and then he would age 23.67 years > > > > > > Summing up: > > > A is ageing 23.664 years because he is inertial between the events. > > > What B does doesn't affect A in any way. > > > > > > B is ageing 9.91 years because of his acceleration history between > > > the events. What A does doesn't affect B in any way. > > > > > > > > You have admitted to 1461 revolutions. That is enough. And that is huge. You are going to find out just how huge. But I prefer to toy with my prey just a while longer. > > > > > > > > Squirm now, Paul. Squirm in the Dolo-claws. > > > Say, are you really too stupid to understand who > > > has made a gigantic fool of himself when he stated: > > > "If a distant observer was travelling at .866 c relative to > > > the solar system along the line that is co-linear with the sun's > > > axis of rotation, then the Earth's gravity HAD to diminish as 0.5." > > > Case closed. > > > > > > -- > > > Paul > > > > > > https://paulba.no/ > > Let's reopen the case with a beautiful quote from Jan in the "clocks and gravity" thread: > > > > "The meaningful statement is that all laws of physics are the same, > > for each observer, locally. > > Now any process that evolves according to the laws of physics > > can be considered to be 'a clock." > > > > The solar system fits Jan's specification of a clock to a T. > > Not the actual clock...but the FACE of a clock. > > One needs to look beyond the face of clock and see the 'machinery' > behind it. > > Like dis for example: > https://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=IkCku4TM8HA Now, everyone knows that all the planets run clockwise and counterclockwise.. the whole universe runs run clockwise and counterclockwise... but the machinery behind these clockwise and counterclockwise objects in the universe no one seems to bother to investitgate. Surely by now you must have taken a clock apart to see what's behind the face of the clock? Or, the machinery behind ...Your face. Like dis for example: you can see the universe ..then, the machinery behind it. https://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=IkCku4TM8HA It's dat simple. Call it a Gravity machine if you will... -- The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable, to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, and challenge the unchallengeable.
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How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-19 15:10 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 15:55 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-19 18:11 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 19:10 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-19 19:47 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-19 20:01 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 20:09 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-19 20:17 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 20:34 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-20 15:33 -0500
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-11-20 22:10 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-20 14:14 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-20 08:02 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-11-20 08:14 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-20 08:19 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-20 08:23 -0800
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Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-20 15:36 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-21 13:28 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-21 06:44 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2022-11-21 10:37 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-21 19:44 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-21 11:32 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-21 22:47 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-21 14:23 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-21 14:24 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-22 13:21 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-22 10:06 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-22 19:55 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-22 11:20 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2022-11-22 19:14 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-23 00:04 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2022-11-22 19:57 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-23 00:08 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-23 12:05 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 03:26 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-11-23 14:50 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 06:57 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-23 12:24 -0500
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 09:36 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-23 14:20 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-23 10:09 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-24 20:36 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-24 14:27 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-25 12:27 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-25 07:23 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-26 10:42 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-26 07:59 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-26 22:42 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-26 20:24 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-27 13:14 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-27 13:27 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-11-27 04:36 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-27 09:28 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-27 12:16 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-28 14:38 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2022-11-28 15:02 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-28 16:35 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2022-11-28 16:50 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-28 19:54 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-30 11:59 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-12-03 10:38 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Bobby Spanò <byy@bybpbayo.ay> - 2022-11-29 18:07 +0000
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Bobby Spanò <byy@bybpbayo.ay> - 2022-11-29 18:12 +0000
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-28 12:53 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-28 10:43 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-29 10:22 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-29 11:33 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2022-11-25 12:45 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-25 13:24 -0800
Cretin Pat Dolan admits he's a clown "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-11-22 07:22 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 18:18 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 23:22 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 20:32 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-19 20:42 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-19 20:50 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-11-20 00:08 -0600
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 23:23 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-11-20 14:08 +0100
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2022-11-20 12:20 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 10:42 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-23 12:19 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-23 12:41 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 13:07 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-23 13:33 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 14:12 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-11-23 17:20 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 18:43 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-24 14:47 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-25 20:03 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-26 11:57 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-11-28 14:01 -0800
Re: How much gravity is too much gravity? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2022-11-23 12:59 -0800
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