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Groups > comp.sys.acorn.misc > #2983
| From | M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Subject | Re: Gove in a virtual world |
| Newsgroups | comp.sys.acorn.misc |
| Date | 2011-12-16 17:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <524294eac4riscos@mdharding.org.uk> (permalink) |
| References | (1 earlier) <5242263d48alan_calder@o2.co.uk> <52422777dbdave@triffid.co.uk> <52422e1f31alan_calder@o2.co.uk> <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk> <524282c456alan_calder@o2.co.uk> |
| Organization | None |
In article <524282c456alan_calder@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote: > In article <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>, > M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote: > [Snip] > > The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could > > be a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/ > > of languages, including one's own English. > Yes, this is the standard argument for Latin. > Trouble is, it holds little of the wet stuff when examined. The > structure of Latin is vastly different from that of modern English > and any suggestion that the odd point of coincidence is any more > than that is pretty specious. Yes, lots of words have Latin/Ancient > Greek roots, about 60% I believe, but that means that 40% don't and > the way we use them bears no comparison to the way Julius C would > have arranged them. After all, we have, for example, khaki, > bungalow, tea, bottom in English, none of them Latin yet I don't > claim that their root languages necessarily are a good guide to > English structure. That's what I was arguing: that it's a mere triviality that many technical words are based on Latin/Greek. English is not Latinate. Vocabulary is not the issue: the structure of sentences, of grammar, is. > You might also consider how a lack of Latin doesn't seem to > penalise Scandinavians, Chinese, Egyptians amongst others when > learning English. Many seem to achieve native levels of fluency > despite that handicap. Of course you can learn other languages without Latin - everybody does: I learned English from my parents. The structure of one's native tongue is just "what sounds right", e.g. "to whom" not "to who". But once you understand that "whom" is the accusative case compared with the nominative "who" and the genitive "whose" you start to discover /why/ it sounds right: you've found the structure of English. I began to learn French before Latin. But having gone on to Latin it was much easier to make sense of the way complex French grammar works, and to make sense of English grammar too. Then for me, Greek coincidentally deepened that analysis of how Language works, with a slightly different way of dealing with nouns and adjectives but a very different concept of verbs. The reason I advocate Latin (no, let's use the Anglo-Saxon version, "stick up for" Latin) is that it's a convenient and straightforward tool for learning how languages work. (To me the literature was just a bonus.) In the late 1950s I wasn't allowed to study a modern language at university without A-level Latin, and without it I would never have coped with starting to learn Russian there, since that's even more inflected and its verb patterns are diabolical. I could have learnt Russian by living in Russia if it had been possible at that period, but it would have been painfully slow and random. Russians aren't aware that their language is inflected - it just "sounds right" and not odd (like our "to who") and after a time students no longer have to use the crutch of working out the word endings and word order because it begins to sound right. > Latin is no help with the structures of languages beyond the > limited number of Latinate ones. Try as you might, you won't find > traces of Latin in Tagalog, a language spoken by many more people > than speak French. Nor of Latin in Russian vocabulary. 8-) > I like the views of Mary Beard, Classics Professor at Cambridge and > Classics editor of the TLS. [ . . . ] > You do NOT learn Latin because it hones your critical and logical > thinking. True I rather like S.H. R. James's jingle that "Latin > trains the brain" (just as I am touched by Stephen Dalzell's > plaudit for the sheer uselessness of the language). But Latin is > only one of many subjects that does this. If we gave our kids three > lessons in formal logic each week, we'd probably soon notice a > difference in their critical power." I think that's probably true about critical powers. I wonder whether there's a difference though between "critical" and "analytical" powers? It does help, in reading The Small Print, to be able to work out analytically what the words actually add up to. [ . . . ] > Mind, I've nothing against Latin but I am disturbed by the way it > is fetishised by some. I'm with you about the (fetishising) cultural snobs. But I won't allow people to put down a subject which I found extremely helpful in moving on to other languages, on the sole basis that it's "dead". C.S. Lewis complained about "chronological snobbery" - the snobbery of considering anything beneath one's consideration because it's too new, or too old. This thread is reminiscent to me of one that's been running elsewhere, about which computer language should be taught first, in order to become proficient in programming in other languages! Michael Harding Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding riscos@mdharding.org.uk
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Gove in a virtual world ChrisF <c.n.l.f@virgin.net> - 2011-12-15 20:47 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 20:53 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 21:06 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 22:19 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:18 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:14 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:34 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 10:46 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:48 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:10 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Jess <phantasm_39@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-18 09:20 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:36 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world jgharston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:04 -0800
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 08:46 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 11:07 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 13:44 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 17:02 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 19:20 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:17 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world "John Williams (News)" <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:35 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:57 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-16 21:12 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 13:04 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 07:50 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:31 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-18 22:27 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-19 01:32 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 12:32 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-19 14:22 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-19 14:00 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 19:59 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 20:13 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 21:35 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 21:05 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 22:10 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Bryn Evans <d@a.invalid> - 2011-12-20 16:42 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:12 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:07 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 09:33 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:10 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-21 20:46 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world SG nws <nwsgrp@ntlworld.com> - 2011-12-21 21:21 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world John <newsmcc@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 14:00 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris <decordova@ukgateway.net> - 2011-12-24 19:46 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:26 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:15 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 09:41 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:21 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 21:24 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:09 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:32 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world trevj <trevj@cwazy.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:45 -0800
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:08 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:33 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:46 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 15:37 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:23 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world "Bruce Goatly" <ss4@goatly.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 10:42 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:58 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:17 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:47 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:57 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 19:08 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:51 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:17 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 18:02 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world NedA <news@ned.uk.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:18 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 18:25 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:40 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:17 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:51 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-20 10:07 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:20 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 00:43 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:16 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:22 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 17:20 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-22 10:36 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:19 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-21 11:00 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:25 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 13:23 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world <cujimmy@nospam.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:50 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:13 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-26 10:50 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 11:58 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:11 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:18 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:38 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 12:31 +0000
APOLOGY to Steve Drain Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:52 +0100
Structures in BASIC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-24 11:38 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:35 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:32 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 09:58 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Howlett <news-spamtrap@brianhowlett.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:12 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:31 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:55 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:56 +0100
Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 16:17 +0000
Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:24 +0100
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