Re: Gove in a virtual world

From	Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.sys.acorn.misc
Subject	Re: Gove in a virtual world
Date	2011-12-16 13:44 +0000
Organization	None
Message-ID	<524282c456alan_calder@o2.co.uk> (permalink)
References	<52b8254252.c.n.l.f@virgin.net> <5242263d48alan_calder@o2.co.uk> <52422777dbdave@triffid.co.uk> <52422e1f31alan_calder@o2.co.uk> <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>

Show all headers | View raw

In article <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>,
   M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could be
> a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/ of
> languages, including one's own English. 

Yes, this is the standard argument for Latin.

Trouble is, it holds little of the wet stuff when examined.  The structure
of Latin is vastly different from that of modern English and any suggestion
that the odd point of coincidence is any more than that is pretty specious.
 Yes, lots of words have Latin/Ancient Greek roots, about 60% I believe,
but that means that 40% don't and the way we use them bears no comparison
to the way Julius C would have arranged them.  After all, we have, for
example, khaki, bungalow, tea, bottom in English, none of them Latin yet I
don't claim that their root languages necessarily are a good guide to
English structure.

You might also consider how a lack of Latin doesn't seem to penalise
Scandinavians, Chinese, Egyptians amongst others when learning English. 
Many seem to achieve native levels of fluency despite that handicap. 
Equally my previously mentioned brother-in-law seems to have managed to
become a highly proficient speaker of Japanese without a smidgeon of
Classical languages whilst my brother in Okinawa is struggling despite a
heavy duty schooling in Latin, Greek and Anglo-Saxon.

Latin is no help with the structures of languages beyond the limited number
of Latinate ones.  Try as you might, you won't find traces of Latin in
Tagalog, a language spoken by many more people than speak French.

I like the views of Mary Beard, Classics Professor at Cambridge and
Classics editor of the TLS.

"You do NOT learn Latin because it helps you learn other languages. Again
that may be a knock on effect. But if you want to learn (say) Spanish, it's
better to get on with it, not learn Latin first to make it easier.
(Besides, I always feel that any subject that tries to justify itself by
claiming that it helps you learn something else is on the way out.)

You do NOT learn Latin because it hones your critical and logical thinking.
True I rather like S.H. R. James's jingle that "Latin trains the brain"
(just as I am touched by Stephen Dalzell's plaudit for the sheer
uselessness of the language). But Latin is only one of many subjects that
does this. If we gave our kids three lessons in formal logic each week,
we'd probably soon notice a difference in their critical power."

The rest of her article is available at 
http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2006/07/does_latin_trai.html

Mind, I've nothing against Latin but I am disturbed by the way it is
fetishised by some.

Cheers

Alan

[Snip]

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

Thread

Gove in a virtual world ChrisF <c.n.l.f@virgin.net> - 2011-12-15 20:47 +0000
  Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 20:53 +0000
    Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 21:06 +0000
      Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 22:19 +0000
        Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:18 +0000
        Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:14 +0100
          Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:34 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 10:46 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:48 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:10 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Jess <phantasm_39@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-18 09:20 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:36 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world jgharston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:04 -0800
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 08:46 +0100
        Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 11:07 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 13:44 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 17:02 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 19:20 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:17 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world "John Williams (News)" <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:35 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:57 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-16 21:12 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 13:04 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 07:50 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:31 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-18 22:27 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-19 01:32 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 12:32 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-19 14:22 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-19 14:00 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 19:59 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 20:13 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 21:35 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 21:05 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 22:10 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Bryn Evans <d@a.invalid> - 2011-12-20 16:42 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:12 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:07 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 09:33 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:10 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-21 20:46 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world SG nws <nwsgrp@ntlworld.com> - 2011-12-21 21:21 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world John <newsmcc@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 14:00 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris <decordova@ukgateway.net> - 2011-12-24 19:46 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:26 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:15 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 09:41 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:21 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 21:24 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:09 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:32 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world trevj <trevj@cwazy.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:45 -0800
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:08 +0100
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:33 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:46 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 15:37 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:23 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world "Bruce Goatly" <ss4@goatly.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 10:42 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:58 +0000
        Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:17 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:47 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:57 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 19:08 +0100
          Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:51 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:17 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 18:02 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world NedA <news@ned.uk.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:18 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 18:25 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:40 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:17 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:51 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-20 10:07 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:20 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 00:43 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:16 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:22 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 17:20 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-22 10:36 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:19 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-21 11:00 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:25 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 13:23 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world  <cujimmy@nospam.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:50 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:13 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-26 10:50 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 11:58 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:11 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:18 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:38 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 12:31 +0000
                APOLOGY to Steve Drain Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:52 +0100
                Structures in BASIC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-24 11:38 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:35 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:32 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 09:58 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Howlett <news-spamtrap@brianhowlett.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:12 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:31 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:55 +0100
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:56 +0100
          Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 16:17 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:24 +0100

csiph-web