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Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals?

Newsgroups	sci.logic
Date	2023-05-28 21:51 -0700
References	(10 earlier) <079ddf64-bc73-4628-9663-852c3b3eec14n@googlegroups.com> <720529bb-1699-46a3-a426-e75700c2d5e0n@googlegroups.com> <584e51a2-1d27-4541-b0f8-213c737363f0n@googlegroups.com> <9734c98a-f56c-4204-aa5a-429bdc9ea405n@googlegroups.com> <de84c45c-a783-4b35-b0d5-33310c5ebfcfn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID	<2af7ef68-75be-4dc3-a242-1ecba7791666n@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals?
From	Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com>

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On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:46:07 PM UTC-7, Dan Christensen wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 9:23:14 PM UTC-4, Mild Shock (aka Mr. Collapse) wrote: 
> [snip childish abuse]
> > I already wrote were it goes wrong. See the last section here, 
> > I refering to a post by Carl Mummert: 
> > > Material implication is critizised for obeying two laws, 
> > > because it is seen as (A => B) == (~A v B): 
> > > 
> > > Law of noncontradiction (LNC) 
> > > Formally this is expressed as the tautology ¬(p ∧ ¬p). 
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction 
> > > 
> > > Law of excluded middle (LEM) 
> > > precise statement of the law of excluded middle, P ∨ ~P 
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle 
> > >
> Pay attention, Mr. Collapse! Again, these laws are legitimate methods of proof that are widely accepted by the vast majority of mathematicians. It is rejected only by a fringe element, the self-styled "constructionists." If you want your work to be widely accepted, this is probably the worst possible approach.
> > > Banach–Tarski paradox 
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox 
> > > 
> > > In this case, the issue is that the entire concept of partitions 
> > > and equivalence classes, which underlies the usual proof of 
> > > the Banach-Tarski paradox, behaves very differently in constructive systems.
> [snip] 
> 
> You mean "constructive" (aka fringe) systems???
> Dan 
> 
> Download my DC Proof 2.0 freeware at http://www.dcproof.com 
> Visit my Math Blog at http://www.dcproof.wordpress.com

Hey, you just learned there "exists" constructivism, it's not "fringe", it's a central effort 
in _rigorous formalism for mathematics_.

I.e., some constructivists have the "non-constructive" is not even _sound_, and is at 
best incomplete and not self-contradictory.

Then, about Banach-Tarski, what the Burse-bot there is doing is what's called 
"talking out the ass", because it's just something you don't know, and whether 
"the devil made you do it" is a sufficient "arbitrary consequent"  or "arbitrary antecedent" 
would suffice, something "you don't know".

About Banach-Tarski, there are two at-odds approaches, one's plainly geometric and 
is for Vitali-Hausdorff.  Another is plainly geometric and for, say, Micielski-Marczewski.  

Here's a thread about "Banach-Tarski".  Of course, I think what I write is most informative, 
and I understand that's subjective.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.logic/c/UFQub2CKXQo/m/eksBibcTAQAJ

One hopes that someday you might understand 
that "ALGEBRAIC geometry" is not "algebraic GEOMETRY".

"So, you can see that "re-Vitali-ization" is ongoing in
mathematics writ large, and quite more accessibly these
days then that as the dust arises of the construction,
it all has to settle to the foundations again. Then,
looking to "re-Vitali-ize" measure as from some quite
fundamental notions as the spiral-space-filling curve
and unique properties of the equivalency function (in
continuity, analysis, differential analysis, singularity
theory, and probability theory) makes a neat course for
then laying out what are building up as these quite
immense structures in categorical algebra in descriptive
set theory, as somewhat neatly primitive (and accordingly
fundamental)."

"Too wordy?"

"It's a "spherical group".

One's geometry's, the other algebra's.

This is in "dynamical topology" in "descriptive set theory". "

"Now, why this relates to Marczewski-Dougherty-Foreman's
Banach-Tarski's is because the "group paradoxical action"
that was set under "decomposition paradoxical action"
(so they didn't look "stupid" or plain "wrong" or otherwise
have to defend another "paradox") is these days being disambiguated
from where they were framed together in the corresponding
systems together.

This arrives full-circle at Zeno. "

Of course you can always read Burse instead:  
"Lol, banach-tarski-fication of herpes boy" - Burse.

Ross:

"This then is for such notions about
Szpilrajn that these days are framed
in notions of "transfer principle"
and "antitransfer principle", but
re-using the development without
re-seating the terms leaves a bit
of an inconsistency in the middle
that naive inference could work out
either way.

Informed inference though is rather
setting such notions in the first-class
where they belong and able to redress
such hand-waving abandonment of topology's
usual difference between results in union
and results in intersection about the
special or limit cases for the transfer
principle where such infinitary results
would be disambiguated to hold or not.

classical geometry -> "paradoxical" decompositions
algebraic geometry -> "paradoxical" group actions

"... as long as we have two copies here,
might as well just stop at the first
and call it the action, though we'll
frame it in the results of the second."

But, really it's that both meet in the middle
(and either way, under some ambiguous assumptions).

So, one might neatly consider a theory of
Banach-Tarski as independent of some usual
assumptions, here basically under topology
and of course as here about that being under
all these usual assumptions of measure, and
whether for example it's "area", as least
under the quadratic , or, "volume", as
under the sphere. "

"An anagram of Banach-Tarski's Paradox
is Marczewski-Swierczkowski's Banach-Tarski's Paradox".

"Here then Banach and Tarski's development
is Banach and Tarski's, vis-a-vis, variously,
Groot, Steinhaus, Swierczkowski, and
algebraic interpretations. "

"That appears to be among Hausdorff's theorems, there (and see above)."

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Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-27 12:04 -0700
  Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-27 13:25 -0700
    Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-27 19:42 -0700
  Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 08:39 -0700
    Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 11:50 -0700
    Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 12:01 -0700
      Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 13:47 -0700
        Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 13:57 -0700
          Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 14:02 -0700
          Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 16:12 -0500
          Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 15:39 -0700
            Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 15:56 -0700
              Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 16:04 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 16:14 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 16:24 -0700
              Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 16:49 -0700
              Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 16:52 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-05-29 02:25 +0200
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-05-29 02:31 +0200
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-05-29 02:45 +0200
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 17:59 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 17:46 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 17:51 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 18:01 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 18:07 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 18:12 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 18:15 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 18:17 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 18:23 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 18:28 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 18:46 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 21:51 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-28 22:14 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 22:33 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 22:36 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 09:01 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 09:27 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 09:32 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 09:35 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 10:03 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-05-29 19:45 +0200
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-30 05:52 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-30 15:16 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 11:14 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 22:53 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-30 17:45 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-05-31 08:23 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-31 13:22 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-31 13:31 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-31 13:38 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-31 13:51 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 19:56 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 21:35 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 21:44 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-01 18:54 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 19:55 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-01 21:13 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 21:19 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 21:23 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-01 21:30 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 22:02 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 22:28 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 22:31 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 22:34 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 22:39 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-01 23:29 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-03 14:14 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-03 14:23 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-01 23:26 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-02 09:42 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 20:41 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 20:58 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-01 21:24 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 21:28 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 21:31 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-01 21:34 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-01 22:49 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-03 04:49 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-03 04:51 -0700
        Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-28 15:33 -0700
    Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 02:52 -0700
      Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 02:58 -0700
        Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 03:03 -0700
          Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 07:35 -0700
            Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 08:23 -0700
              Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 08:30 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 08:33 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 09:56 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-05-29 19:56 +0200
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 11:40 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 11:43 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 13:32 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 13:38 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 13:59 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 15:19 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 15:21 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-05-29 17:37 -0700
                Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-05-29 19:00 -0700
  Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-06-02 09:41 +0200
    Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-02 09:42 -0700
      Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-02 11:00 -0700
        Re: Erroneous conclusions from applying material conditionals? Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-02 11:14 -0700

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