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Re: Wayland Makes Progress

From John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Wayland Makes Progress
Date 2026-05-04 09:43 -0700
Organization A place where nothing fits quite right
Message-ID <20260504094307.00000494@gmail.com> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <10t0kv8$10lf6$8@dont-email.me> <20260501135638.000014d3@gmail.com> <10t3a7f$1og72$5@dont-email.me> <20260501155425.00007474@gmail.com> <wwvtssqb1tf.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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On Sat, 02 May 2026 10:25:32 +0100
Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> If a user moves a window to a particular location, or configures a
> particular rule in their window manager about how menus behave, or
> where application windows go, etc etc etc then the application should
> not be allowed to override that.

In the general case, I'd agree - but UI conventions on the *nix desktop
have evolved in a few different directions over the last 42 years, and
"multiple sub-windows in a predefined layout" is 100% a valid design
that multiple different applications have adopted for their workflow.

If their concern were really for preventing rogue/nuisance applications
from disrupting the user's desktop arrangement, they could've had some
kind of application-specific permissions system (as, say, OSX does) so
users could configure this themselves - could even opt-out by default.

But flatly disallowing it altogether - to the point where it's not even
provided for in the protocol - is an *incredibly* blinkered view of UI
design that more suggests a developer mindset of disinterest in anyone
else's way of doing things. Which would be fine for someone's personal
project - but emphatically *not* fine for a project that proposes to
replace a huge piece of infrastructure relied on by many millions of
users across thousands of different applications/use cases.

It's like if the IETF decided to exclude port 6667 going forward 'cause
they personally didn't care about IRC.

> This is _not_ inconsistent with applications that want to create
> multiple windows in a particular spatial relationship to one another,
> but it does mean that just specifying absolute coordinates isn’t going
> to do the job: rather it means that such applications need a way to
> communicate the desired relationship.  AIUI, MR264 is an approach to
> implementing exactly that.

Maybe so - but Wayland is 17 years old at this point, while MR264 is ~2
and if you look at the comments they were still trying to argue that
You Don't Need That as of a year ago. Whether or not MR264 becomes an
acceptable solution, it's incredibly clear that the developers do not
prioritize user needs over their own ideas of How Things Should Work
'til 800-lb. gorillas like KiCad force their hand.

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Thread

Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-30 07:50 +0000
  Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2026-04-30 12:29 +0000
    Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-30 17:29 +0100
      Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-04-30 09:53 -0700
        Re: Wayland Makes Progress Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-04-30 18:02 +0100
          Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-04-30 10:15 -0700
            Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-30 22:26 +0000
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:56 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-01 22:41 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 15:54 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:07 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-04 08:32 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-04 23:40 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-04 15:20 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-04 23:52 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 08:12 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-05 15:57 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 09:10 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-05 18:14 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-06 17:41 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-05 21:52 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 15:26 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-06 04:11 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-06 08:43 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-05-06 16:30 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-06 21:13 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-06 22:06 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-05-07 03:49 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-07 16:37 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-07 13:06 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-07 18:35 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-07 21:30 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-08 12:54 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-08 19:07 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-08 21:58 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 03:31 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-09 00:48 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 07:44 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-09 13:46 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 16:42 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-09 22:02 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-09 23:38 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-10 19:31 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-15 13:55 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-15 17:04 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 23:39 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-10 20:09 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 03:19 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 01:03 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 06:05 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-11 11:35 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 16:38 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-11 20:21 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 09:10 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-11 19:42 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 01:58 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:18 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 15:43 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 18:27 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 03:17 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-13 13:08 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-12 10:34 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 03:22 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 12:13 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 16:11 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-11 11:20 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 15:45 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-11 19:48 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 01:43 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:26 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 22:15 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-12 02:57 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-09 13:42 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 16:35 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-09 22:04 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-09 12:47 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-09 12:15 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 17:26 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 01:04 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-10 12:33 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 23:12 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-11 13:12 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 14:45 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 16:05 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 17:37 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 02:35 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 23:42 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:31 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:27 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 10:41 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 16:12 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-12 20:46 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 03:55 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-12 21:44 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 17:09 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-13 19:47 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-14 10:25 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-14 18:38 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 12:34 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 17:10 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-13 21:34 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-14 10:26 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-14 12:43 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-14 11:54 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-14 18:38 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-14 22:33 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-14 23:28 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-15 04:36 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-15 04:58 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-15 08:01 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-15 17:20 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-15 11:21 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-15 02:37 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-15 17:17 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-14 17:08 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 12:27 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 17:36 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:18 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:22 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 20:41 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 12:21 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 16:04 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-12 13:24 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 15:10 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-12 08:54 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:29 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:23 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:16 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:36 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-12 09:51 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 03:52 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-12 19:55 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 03:45 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 09:46 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 18:09 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 02:55 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 23:46 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:25 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:07 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:00 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 20:58 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:27 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:24 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 21:05 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-12 13:19 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 15:04 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 18:39 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-12 10:44 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 04:28 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-12 21:50 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 12:10 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 16:22 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 11:49 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 16:59 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 11:34 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 04:23 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 12:14 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 11:23 +0100
                Peoples [Was: Wayland Makes Progress] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-13 13:34 +0200
                Re: Peoples [Was: Wayland Makes Progress] Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-15 20:17 +0000
                Re: Peoples [Was: Wayland Makes Progress] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-15 22:28 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-13 13:21 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 14:43 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-14 12:55 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-14 14:19 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-14 16:51 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-14 23:08 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-14 22:35 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-14 23:39 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-15 14:04 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 15:49 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-13 09:10 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-11 22:54 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 03:24 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:31 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:39 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 10:55 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-12 13:18 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:51 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 15:50 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-05-12 08:23 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:38 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 12:04 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-07 21:29 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-09 10:18 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-09 13:49 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-10 13:00 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-09 20:46 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 01:06 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-10 13:08 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-09 23:33 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-08 21:45 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 15:23 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-09 03:42 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-06 01:35 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-06 17:49 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-06 19:05 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-07 12:59 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-07 16:55 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-07 21:32 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-08 12:56 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-08 18:05 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-08 13:01 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-08 21:41 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-09 14:03 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-09 15:46 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 16:56 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-09 18:04 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 16:51 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-09 18:40 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-05-10 16:50 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 22:46 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-15 19:58 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-15 21:23 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-15 21:08 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 00:28 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-02 10:25 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-04 09:43 -0700
        Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-01 15:32 +0000
          Re: Wayland Makes Progress Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-05-01 22:21 +0200
            Re: Wayland Makes Progress Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-05-01 20:36 +0000
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-01 22:37 +0000
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:40 +0100
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-02 09:07 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-05-02 12:32 +0200
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-05-02 12:29 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-02 20:22 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-02 23:27 +0000
            Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:39 +0100
            Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-03 09:20 +0200
      Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-04-30 14:39 -0400
      Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-01 15:29 +0000
    Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-01 09:30 +0000
      Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-01 13:36 +0200
        Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-01 22:36 +0000
          Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-02 12:43 +0200
            VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-05-02 10:53 +0000
              Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-02 13:14 +0200
                Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-02 13:29 +0000
              Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-05-02 13:39 +0200
                Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-05-02 11:52 +0000
                Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-02 13:32 +0000
                Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-02 15:09 +0100
                Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-02 18:29 +0000
                Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-05-02 19:15 +0200
                Re: VMware (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-02 20:25 +0200
      Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-03 12:34 +0000
        Re: Wayland Makes Progress Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-03 13:50 +0100
        Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-03 22:03 +0000
          Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-04 12:51 +0000
            Re: Wayland Makes Progress Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-05-04 19:35 +0000
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-07 12:56 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-07 16:53 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-05-07 17:39 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-07 20:10 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-08 13:04 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-08 14:27 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-08 19:05 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-09 14:01 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-09 15:15 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 16:24 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-09 14:44 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 23:08 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 00:30 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-10 13:04 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-08 21:53 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 15:13 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-09 13:55 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-09 15:52 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-10 13:10 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-10 18:46 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-11 13:38 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-11 17:46 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 18:57 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-11 20:07 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-15 09:10 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 02:04 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 22:49 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:38 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:34 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 23:30 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-11 13:30 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 16:56 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-05-11 22:38 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 02:25 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-05-12 08:02 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-12 02:24 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:53 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 17:09 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 17:06 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 22:54 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-13 13:39 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 12:58 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 16:03 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-13 22:54 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 15:56 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-13 13:13 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:51 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 22:30 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:44 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 12:15 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-13 16:16 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-11 23:01 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 02:11 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 19:58 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:53 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:56 +0200
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:44 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:40 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:49 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-12 08:06 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-13 10:34 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:47 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-12 12:40 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 17:03 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 00:33 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-10 13:01 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 23:21 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-11 13:52 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-08 09:23 +1000
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-09 10:02 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-09 12:58 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 17:14 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-09 20:46 +0000
                Dump Truck (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-05-09 21:30 +0000
                Re: Dump Truck (Was: Wayland Makes Progress) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 00:58 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-09 14:38 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 23:12 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-09 16:22 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-09 23:33 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 01:02 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-10 17:40 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 12:11 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 15:52 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 09:22 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 03:51 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 21:14 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-12 01:14 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:58 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-12 00:36 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 17:03 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 12:40 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 03:27 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-09 17:02 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 01:00 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 00:57 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-10 17:40 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 22:54 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 12:12 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-11 15:55 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 09:32 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-11 17:46 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-11 21:50 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:12 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 03:23 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 03:16 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-11 21:23 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-12 01:23 -0400
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-12 14:29 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-12 16:41 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 23:16 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-05-09 14:35 -0700
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-09 23:52 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-10 01:08 +0100
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-10 13:33 +0000
                Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-10 23:15 +0000
            Re: Wayland Makes Progress Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-04 23:57 +0000
              Re: Wayland Makes Progress Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> - 2026-05-07 12:50 +0000
            Re: Wayland Makes Progress rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-05 01:09 +0000

csiph-web