Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior

From	Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior
Date	2026-01-12 20:08 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<20260112200821.000020a5@yahoo.com> (permalink)
References	<10j6qdt$3q9n4$1@dont-email.me> <20260112162857.00003dd8@yahoo.com> <10k35mn$2ean4$1@dont-email.me>

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On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 15:58:15 +0000
bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 12/01/2026 14:28, Michael S wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Jan 2026 22:54:05 +0100  
> 
> > On related note.
> > 
> > 
> > struct bar1 {
> >    int table[4];
> >    int other_table[4];
> > };
> > 
> > struct bar2 {
> >    int other_table[4];
> >    int table[4];
> > };
> > 
> > int foo1(struct bar1* p, int v)
> > {
> >    for (int i = 0; i <= 4; ++i)
> >      if (p->table[i] == v)
> >        return 1;
> >    return 0;
> > }
> > 
> > 
> > int foo2(struct bar2* p, int v)
> > {
> >    for (int i = 0; i <= 4; ++i)
> >      if (p->table[i] == v)
> >        return 1;
> >    return 0;
> > }
> > 
> > According to C Standard, access to p->table[4] in foo1() is UB.
> > [O.T.]
> > I want to use language (or, better, standardize dialect of C) in
> > which behavior in this case is defined, but I am bad at influencing
> > other people. So can not get what I want.
> > [/O.T.]  
> 
> 
> So you want to deliberately read one element past the end because you 
> know it will be the first element of other_table?
> 

Yes. I primarily want it for multi-dimensional arrays. Making the same
pattern defined in 'struct' is less important in practice, but desirable
for consistency between arrays and structures.

> I think then it would be better writing it like this:
> 
>   struct bar1 {
>     union {
>       struct {
>         int table[4];
>         int other_table[4];
>        };
>       int xtable[8];
>     };
>   };
> 
>   int foo1(struct bar1* p, int v)
>   {
>     for (int i = 0; i <= 4; ++i)
>       if (p->xtable[i] == v)
>         return 1;
>     return 0;
>   }
> 
> At least your intent is signaled to whomever is reading your code.
>

If were use language or dialect in which the behavior is defined, why
would you consider the second variant better?
I don't mean in this particular very simplified example, but generally,
where layout is more complicated.

> But I don't know if UB goes away, if you intend writing to .table and 
> .other_table, and reading those values via .xtable (I can't remember
> the rules).
> 
> I'm not even sure about there being no padding between .table and 
> .other_table.

Considering that they both 'int' I don't think that it could happen,
even in standard C. In "my" dialect, padding in such situation can be
explicitly disallowed by the standard.

> 
> (In my systems language, the behaviour of your original foo1, in an 
> equivalent program, is well-defined. But not of foo2, given that you
> may read some garbage value beyond the struct, which may or may not
> be within valid memory.)
> 
> 
> > Now the question.
> > What The Standard says about foo2() ? Is there UB in foo2() as
> > well?  
> 
> Given that you may be reading garbage as I said, whether it is UB or
> not is irrelevant; your program has a bug.

Whether there is bug or not depends on what caller passed to foo2().
There are great many programs around that do similar things and contain
no bugs. Most typically, caller creates argument p by casting of char
array that is long enough for table member to hold more than 4
elements.
Without seeing code on the caller's site we could only guess, due to
suspect way the code is written, that there is bug. But we can't be
sure.

> 
> Unless you can add extra context which would make that reasonable.
> For example, the struct is within an array, it's not the last
> element, so it will read the first element of .other_table, and you
> are doing this knowingly rather than through oversight.
> 
> It might well be UB, but that is a separate problem.
> 
>

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On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-01 22:54 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-02 00:26 +0200
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-01 23:57 +0100
    Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-02 22:56 +0000
      Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-03 20:48 +0200
      Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 14:38 +0100
        Re: On Undefined Behaviour Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 21:42 +0000
          Re: On Undefined Behaviour candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2026-01-07 06:40 +0000
        Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 16:58 -0500
          Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 08:49 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-01 17:49 -0500
  Re: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-02 05:53 +0000
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-02 17:38 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 13:30 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-02 10:31 +0100
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-02 17:51 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 13:42 +0100
        Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-03 14:42 +0100
          Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 17:51 +0100
            Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:20 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-02 22:52 +0000
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-03 23:47 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-04 12:58 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 07:53 -0800
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:15 +0100
      NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:25 +0100
        Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-03 18:59 -0500
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-04 15:51 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 08:55 +0100
        Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 17:24 -0800
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 02:19 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-03 21:31 -0500
              Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 04:52 +0000
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 13:00 -0500
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 21:22 +0000
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 16:53 -0500
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-05 00:16 +0000
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-05 06:41 -0500
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 09:07 +0100
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-04 15:56 +0000
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 18:44 -0800
        Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-04 17:16 +0100
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-06 13:08 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-06 21:59 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-07 20:48 -0800
              Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-08 23:56 +0000
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-03 23:14 +0000
  Re: On Undefined Behavior "Paul J. Lucas" <paul@lucasmail.org> - 2026-01-03 17:10 -0800
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 12:51 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 15:39 +0100
        Re: On Undefined Behavior "Paul J. Lucas" <paul@lucasmail.org> - 2026-01-06 18:08 -0800
          Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-07 11:25 +0100
          Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-07 06:31 -0500
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-07 14:10 +0200
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-09 01:42 -0800
    Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-09 14:36 +0200
      Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-09 20:14 +0000
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-10 18:19 +0200
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-10 18:41 +0200
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-13 23:31 +0000
            Re: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-14 03:57 +0000
            Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-14 10:47 +0200
            Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 14:49 +0000
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-10 17:08 +0000
      Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-11 11:48 -0800
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-11 22:52 +0200
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-11 22:53 -0800
            Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 11:44 +0200
              Re: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 20:29 -0500
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 05:29 -0800
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-09 15:54 +0200
    Re: On Undefined Behavior wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2026-01-10 00:08 +0800
  UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 16:28 +0200
    Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-01-12 15:58 +0000
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 20:08 +0200
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-12 20:02 +0000
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 21:09 -0500
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-13 11:31 +0200
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:21 -0500
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:19 -0500
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-14 09:35 +0100
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-14 17:23 +0000
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-14 12:53 -0800
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-14 14:43 -0800
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 11:45 +0100
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-15 06:16 -0500
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-15 04:04 -0800
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 13:56 +0100
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 05:34 -0800
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-15 15:10 +0000
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 16:23 +0100
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 21:54 +0000
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 21:58 -0500
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-13 22:02 -0800
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 14:24 +0000
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-14 16:48 +0200
    Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-12 08:03 -0800
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 19:36 +0200
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-12 12:03 -0800
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 22:41 +0200
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-13 09:12 +0100
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior pa@see.signature.invalid (Pierre Asselin) - 2026-01-13 20:19 +0000
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:20 -0500
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 21:53 -0800
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 23:53 +0000
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 08:06 +0000
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-13 08:11 -0800
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:10 -0500
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-03-01 22:53 -0800
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:20 -0500
    Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 20:35 -0500
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-13 11:07 +0200
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 20:37 +0000

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