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| From | Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: On Undefined Behavior |
| Date | 2026-01-11 11:48 -0800 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <868qe4lymf.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink) |
| References | <10j6qdt$3q9n4$1@dont-email.me> <86ms2nm89u.fsf@linuxsc.com> <20260109143647.0000372d@yahoo.com> |
Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> writes:
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2026 01:42:53 -0800
> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>
>> highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> While I consider myself reasonably good as C programmer, I still
>>> have difficulties in understanding undefined behavior.
>>> I wonder if anyone in this NG could help me.
>>>
>>> Let's take an example. There's plenty here:
>>> https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/language/behavior.html
>>> So let's focus on https://godbolt.org/z/48bn19Tsb
>>>
>>> For the lazy, I report it here:
>>>
>>> int table[4] = {0};
>>> int exists_in_table(int v)
>>> {
>>> // return true in one of the first 4 iterations
>>> // or UB due to out-of-bounds access
>>> for (int i = 0; i <= 4; i++) {
>>> if (table[i] == v) return 1;
>>> }
>>> return 0;
>>> }
>>>
>>> This is compiled (with no warning whatsoever) into:
>>>
>>> exists_in_table:
>>> mov eax, 1
>>> ret
>>> table:
>>> .zero 16
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, this is *obviously* wrong. And sure, so is the original code,
>>> but I find it hard to think that the compiler isn't able to notice
>>> it, given that it is even "exploiting" it to produce very efficient
>>> code.
>>>
>>> I understand the formalism: the resulting assembly is formally
>>> "correct", in that UB implies that anything can happen.
>>> Yet I can't think of any situation where the resulting assembly
>>> could be considered sensible. The compiled function will
>>> basically return 1 for any input, and the final program will be
>>> buggy.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't it be more sensible to have a compilation error, or
>>> at least a warning? The compiler will be happy even with -Wall
>>> -Wextra -Werror.
>>>
>>> There's plenty of documentation, articles and presentations that
>>> explain how this can make very efficient code... but nothing
>>> will answer this question: do I really want to be efficiently
>>> wrong?
>>>
>>> I mean, yes I would find the problem, thanks to my 100% coverage
>>> unit testing, but couldn't the compiler give me a hint?
>>>
>>> Could someone drive me into this reasoning? I know there is a lot
>>> of thinking behind it, yet everything seems to me very incorrect!
>>> I'm in deep cognitive dissonance here! :) Help!
>>
>> The important thing to realize is that the fundamental issue here
>> is not a technical question but a social question. In effect what
>> you are asking is "why doesn't gcc (or clang, or whatever) do what
>> I want or expect?". The answer is different people want or expect
>> different things. For some people the behavior described is
>> egregiously wrong and must be corrected immediately. For other
>> people the compiler is acting just as they think it should,
>> nothing to see here, just fix the code and move on to the next
>> bug. Different people have different priorities.
>
> I have hard time imagining sort of people that would have objections
> in case compiler generates the same code as today, but issues
> diagnostic.
It depends on what the tradeoffs are. For example, given a
choice, I would rather have an option to prevent this particular
death-by-UB optimization than an option to issue a diagnostic.
Having both costs more effort than having just only one.
Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-01 22:54 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-02 00:26 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-01 23:57 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-02 22:56 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-03 20:48 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 14:38 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behaviour Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 21:42 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behaviour candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2026-01-07 06:40 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 16:58 -0500
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 08:49 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-01 17:49 -0500
Re: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-02 05:53 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-02 17:38 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 13:30 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-02 10:31 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-02 17:51 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 13:42 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-03 14:42 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 17:51 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:20 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-02 22:52 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-03 23:47 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-04 12:58 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 07:53 -0800
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:15 +0100
NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:25 +0100
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-03 18:59 -0500
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-04 15:51 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 08:55 +0100
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 17:24 -0800
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 02:19 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-03 21:31 -0500
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 04:52 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 13:00 -0500
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 21:22 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 16:53 -0500
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-05 00:16 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-05 06:41 -0500
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 09:07 +0100
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-04 15:56 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 18:44 -0800
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-04 17:16 +0100
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-06 13:08 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-06 21:59 +0000
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-07 20:48 -0800
Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-08 23:56 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-03 23:14 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior "Paul J. Lucas" <paul@lucasmail.org> - 2026-01-03 17:10 -0800
Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 12:51 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 15:39 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior "Paul J. Lucas" <paul@lucasmail.org> - 2026-01-06 18:08 -0800
Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-07 11:25 +0100
Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-07 06:31 -0500
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-07 14:10 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-09 01:42 -0800
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-09 14:36 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-09 20:14 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-10 18:19 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-10 18:41 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-13 23:31 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-14 03:57 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-14 10:47 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 14:49 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-10 17:08 +0000
Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-11 11:48 -0800
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-11 22:52 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-11 22:53 -0800
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 11:44 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 20:29 -0500
Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 05:29 -0800
Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-09 15:54 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2026-01-10 00:08 +0800
UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 16:28 +0200
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-01-12 15:58 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 20:08 +0200
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-12 20:02 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 21:09 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-13 11:31 +0200
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:21 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:19 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-14 09:35 +0100
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-14 17:23 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-14 12:53 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-14 14:43 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 11:45 +0100
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-15 06:16 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-15 04:04 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 13:56 +0100
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 05:34 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-15 15:10 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 16:23 +0100
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 21:54 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 21:58 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-13 22:02 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 14:24 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-14 16:48 +0200
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-12 08:03 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 19:36 +0200
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-12 12:03 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 22:41 +0200
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-13 09:12 +0100
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior pa@see.signature.invalid (Pierre Asselin) - 2026-01-13 20:19 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:20 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 21:53 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 23:53 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 08:06 +0000
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-13 08:11 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:10 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-03-01 22:53 -0800
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:20 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 20:35 -0500
Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-13 11:07 +0200
Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 20:37 +0000
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