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Groups > comp.lang.c > #382085

Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c

From Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c
Date 2024-02-08 13:10 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20240208131010.00000ee8@yahoo.com> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <20240204191630.146@kylheku.com> <upupab$14ugp$1@dont-email.me> <20240207135635.906@kylheku.com> <uq1bqi$1ls91$1@dont-email.me> <20240207180750.491@kylheku.com>

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On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 02:50:08 -0000 (UTC)
Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> wrote:

> On 2024-02-08, bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > On 07/02/2024 23:24, Kaz Kylheku wrote:  
> >> On 2024-02-07, bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:  
> >>> On 05/02/2024 05:58, Kaz Kylheku wrote:  
> >>>> On 2024-02-05, bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:  
> >>>  
> >>>> Writing a compiler is pretty easy, because the bar can be set
> >>>> very low while still calling it a compiler.  
> >>>  
> >>>> Whole-program compilers are easier because there are fewer
> >>>> requirements. You have only one kind of deliverable to produce:
> >>>> the executable. You don't have to deal with linkage and produce
> >>>> a linkable format.  
> >>>
> >>> David Brown suggested that they were harder than I said. You're
> >>> saying they are easier.  
> >> 
> >> I'm saying it's somewhat easier to make a compiler which produces
> >> an object file than to produce a compiler that produces object
> >> files *and*  
>                ^^^^
> >> a linker that combines them.  
> >
> > Is there a 'than' missing above? Otherwise it's contradictory.  
> 
> Other "than" that one? Hmm.
> 
> >> There is all that code you don't have to write to produce object
> >> files, read them, and link them. You don't have to solve the
> >> problem of how to represent unresolved references in an
> >> externalized form in a file.  
> > Programs that generate object files usually invoke other people's
> > linkers.
> >
> > But your comments are simplistic. EXE formats can be as hard to
> > generate as OBJ files. You still have to resolve the dynamic
> > imports into an EXE.  
> 
> Generating just the EXE format is objectively less work than
> generating OBJ files and linking them into that ... same EXE format,
> right?
> 
> > You need to either have a ready-made language designed for
> > whole-program work, or you need to devise one.
> >
> > Plus, if the minimal compilation unit is now all N source modules
> > of a project rather than just 1 module, then you'd better have a
> > pretty fast compiler, and some strategies for dealing with scale.  
> 
> Easy; just drop language conformance, diagnostics, optimization.
> 
> >>> Well, don't believe it if you don't want.  
> >> 
> >> Oh I want to believe; I just can't do that which I want, without
> >> proper evidence.
> >> 
> >> Do you have a reference manual for your C dialect, and is it
> >> covered by tests? What programs and constructs are required to
> >> work in your C dialect? What are required to be diagnosed? What is
> >> left undefined?  
> >
> > So no one can claim to write a 'C' compiler unless it does
> > everything as well as gcc which started in 1987, has had hordes of
> > people working with it, and has had feedback from myriads of users?
> >  
> 
> Nope; unless it is documented so that there is a box, where it says
> what is in the box, and some way to tell that what's on the box is in
> the box.
> 
> > I had some particular aims with my project, most of which were
> > achieved, boxes ticked.
> >  
> >>> The NASM.EXE program is bit larger at 1.3MB for example, that's
> >>> 98.7% smaller than your giant program.  
> >> 
> >> That's amazingly large for an assembler. Is that stripped of debug
> >> info?  
> >
> > The as.exe assembler for gcc/TDM 10.3 is 1.8MB. For mingw 13.2 it
> > was 1.5MB.  
> 
> "as" on Ubuntu 18, 32 bit.
> 
> $ size /usr/bin/i686-linux-gnu-as
>    text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
>  430315   12544   37836  480695   755b7 /usr/bin/i686-linux-gnu-as
> 
> Still pretty large. Always use the "size" utility, rather than raw
> file size. This has 430315 bytes of code, 12544 of non-zero static
> data, 37836 bytes of zeroed data (not part of the executable size).
> 

$ /mingw32/bin/as.exe --version
GNU assembler (GNU Binutils) 2.40
Copyright (C) 2023 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This program is free software; you may redistribute it under the terms
of the GNU General Public License version 3 or later.
This program has absolutely no warranty.
This assembler was configured for a target of `i686-w64-mingw32'.

$ size /mingw32/bin/as.exe
   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
2941952   10392   43416 2995760  2db630
C:/bin/msys64a/mingw32/bin/as.exe


$ /mingw64/bin/as.exe --version
GNU assembler (GNU Binutils) 2.39
Copyright (C) 2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This program is free software; you may redistribute it under the terms
of the GNU General Public License version 3 or later.
This program has absolutely no warranty.
This assembler was configured for a target of `x86_64-w64-mingw32'.

$ size /mingw64/bin/as.exe
   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
2966156   14776   45216 3026148  2e2ce4
C:/bin/msys64a/mingw64/bin/as.exe



> That's still large for an assembler, but at least it's not larger
> than GNU Awk.
>

$ awk --version
GNU Awk 5.1.1, API: 3.1 (GNU MPFR 4.1.0-p13, GNU MP 6.2.1)
Copyright (C) 1989, 1991-2021 Free Software Foundation.

This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 3 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version.

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
GNU General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
along with this program. If not, see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/.


$ size /usr/bin/awk.exe
   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
 619497   15884   23104  658485   a0c35 C:/bin/msys64a/usr/bin/awk.exe


Looks like on msys2 GNU as is much larger than GNU awk.

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What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-05 01:09 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-05 05:58 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 22:49 -0800
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-05 07:03 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 23:51 -0800
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 23:52 -0800
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Jan van den Broek <balglaas@dds.nl> - 2024-02-05 08:36 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-05 18:23 +0200
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-05 18:32 +0200
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-05 20:53 +0100
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-05 20:53 +0000
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 09:44 +0100
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 01:03 -0800
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-06 13:41 +0200
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 13:08 +0100
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-06 23:23 +0000
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 08:54 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 08:59 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 10:47 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 11:04 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:21 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 14:24 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:30 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 15:36 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 18:05 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-07 18:26 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 19:53 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-07 21:38 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 00:29 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:37 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 22:52 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 01:13 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 02:09 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 03:07 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 14:17 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-08 16:02 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-09 00:48 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 08:53 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-10 21:55 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 13:01 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 11:37 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 12:10 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 13:24 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 13:03 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 13:17 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 16:52 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 17:17 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-09 14:50 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 12:44 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:49 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 16:13 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 08:21 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:01 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-07 13:21 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 13:42 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 16:17 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-07 21:34 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-07 16:21 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-08 13:26 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 10:04 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:51 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 15:30 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 15:45 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:44 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 00:33 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 01:30 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-08 01:38 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 02:21 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 03:07 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 11:45 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 12:15 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 13:29 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 12:55 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 09:02 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-08 16:09 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-08 16:28 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 17:13 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-08 17:53 -0800
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-05 19:02 +0200
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-05 23:28 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-05 23:40 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-06 01:46 +0200
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 09:54 +0100
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-05 16:03 -0800
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-05 16:06 -0800
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 09:50 +0100
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 01:01 -0800
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-06 23:24 +0000
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 08:56 +0100
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-07 12:09 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 15:03 +0100
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-07 16:25 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:49 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 13:04 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-07 23:37 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 08:52 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-09 15:55 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 15:29 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-09 16:52 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 17:22 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-10 07:18 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-10 17:11 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-10 21:23 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-11 14:01 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-07 21:41 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 02:18 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 09:30 +0100
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 09:04 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-07 23:24 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 01:46 +0000
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 02:50 +0000
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 11:08 +0000
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-08 13:10 +0200
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 17:48 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-08 21:30 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 20:39 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 13:39 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 14:18 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-02-08 22:29 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 14:43 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 09:12 +0100
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-04 23:36 -0800
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-05 14:52 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-02-05 22:58 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-02-05 18:01 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-05 08:29 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 01:35 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-07 02:26 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 10:47 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2024-02-05 11:03 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-05 13:15 +0100
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-05 14:09 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-05 23:29 +0000

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