Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c

From	Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c
Date	2024-02-09 14:50 -0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<86il2x5k1s.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <87y1bwtuss.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <upvo4c$1d64i$1@dont-email.me> <87h6ikthg4.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <uq0gpd$1hiun$1@dont-email.me> <87il2zrxtn.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> writes:

[some previous material removed or summarized]

> bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>
>> On 07/02/2024 15:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>>> bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 07/02/2024 10:47, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> [on choosing between declaring local variables always at the
>>>>>>  start of a function, before any statements, or declaring
>>>>>>  local variables throughout the body of a function, usually
>>>>>>  with an initializing declaration at the point of first use;
>>>>>>  an all-at-the-top style gives a single place to look for
>>>>>>  all locals used in the function body]
>>>>>
>>>>> You should not need an inventory of what's being operated on.
>>>>> Any function so complex that I can't tell immediately what
>>>>> declaration corresponds to which name needs to be re-written.
>>>>
>>>> But if you keep functions small, eg. the whole body is visible
>>>> at the same time, then there is less need for declarations to
>>>> clutter up the code.  They can go at the top, so that you can
>>>> literally can just glance there.
>>>
>>> Declarations don't clutter up the code, just as the code does not
>>> clutter up the declarations.  That's just your own spin on the
>>> matter.  They are both important parts of a C program.
>>
>> That sounds like your opinion against mine.  It's nothing to do
>> with spin, whatever that means.
>
> It's spin, because the term is emotive.  "Cluttering up" is how
> you feel about it.  The phrase is just a mildly pejorative one
> about appearances.  There's no substance there.  To make a
> technical point you would have to explain how, for example,
>
>    struct item *items;
>    ...
>    n_elements = get_number_of_items(...);
>    items = malloc(n_elements * sizeof *items);
>    ...
>
> is technically better than
>
>    n_elements = get_number_of_items(...);
>    struct item *items = malloc(n_elements * sizeof *items);
>
> I've explained (more than once) how I find reasoning about
> the direct initialise at first use style easier with fewer
> distractions.

I would like to offer another perspective here.  First let me state
some personal preferences without giving any whys or wherefores.

I mostly put declarations at the start of a compound statement,
before any statements in the same block.  I'm not absolutely opposed
to writing declarations "between statements", but in most cases I
don't if there is a reasonable way to avoid it.

I usually declare variables in the most-nested compound statement
that works.  I'm not entirely rigorous about it.

In most cases I write initializing declarations for variables that
are not subsequently modified.  For other variables it varies (no
pun intended), but typically such variables are declared without an
initializer.

When writing for() statements, sometimes I use the declaring form
for the first clause, but most of the time I don't.

I am strongly biased in favor of keeping function bodies short.  To
put some numbers on that, 25 lines for almost all functions, 40
lines for longer functions, and 60 lines for all functions (with the
qualifier that longer than 60 lines is not categorically excluded,
but there needs to be a compelling argument that observing the
60-line bound is not feasible).  Those numbers are of course meant
as upper bounds, and not as being typical or representative.

I strongly prefer code that looks clean.  The word "clean" here
means lots of different things, but "easy on the eyes" might be a
good capsule summary.  That said, the measure is not purely visual:
it's also important that the code be semantically clean, but that
idea is even harder to define than visual appearance.

(Amusing aside:  as it happens I recently wrote a function whose
body consisted of 25 initializing declarations, followed by four
one-line imperative statements and then a single simple return
statement.)

Now here are some explanations.

Short functions are easier to understand than long functions.
Conversely, functions that are, say, longer than a single page are
very likely to be more difficult to comprehend.  A corollary to this
relationship is that long functions need to be cleaner than short
functions:  a short function body can bend or break style rules
without losing too much understandability, but long function bodies
tend to become harder to understand much faster if they aren't
fastidious in hewing to good style aesthetics.

In choosing where to put declarations, I find that I have a
different mindset when reading declarations than when reading
executable statements.  (Yes I know initializing declarations are
executable but I think everyone knows what I mean.)  Switching
between those two mindsets, even though it may be subconscious,
requires some amount of mental effort, so it's mentally easier (for
me anyway) when reading code to keep declarations and statements
separate.  I often will put in a blank line after the declarations
and before the statements, especially in the outermost block of a
function.  The blank line both makes it easier to find the dividing
point between the two regimes and also gives a kind of mental cue to
(maybe make it easier to) switch from one mindset to the other.

Another concern is uniformity.  Putting declarations at top of block
always works;  trying to declare at the point of first use sometimes
doesn't.  Similarly using the expression form of for() always works,
but trying to use declaration-style for()s sometimes doesn't.  Being
completely uniform is not an absolute requirement, or even a super
high priority, but it does exert a slight pressure in the direction
of choosing top-of-block declarations rather than being mixed in
with executable statements.

I should say explicitly that the above statements, and indeed I
think all the statements in this posting, are relating only my own
reactions and assessments, and for sure other people may have
different reactions and assessments, and there is no contradiction
in that.  Each person has his or her own central nervous system, and
how different people react can vary a lot from person to person.  An
example I like to give about myself is I am partially colorblind, so
things like putting keywords in a different color are in many cases
worse than useless for me, no matter how helpful they may be for
other people.

Now I would like to offer some views on the earlier discussions.

First, I don't think what bart is advocating is completely without
merit.  His position is more strict than my own, but certainly there
is some overlap.

Second, I think there is also some merit in the declare-at-first-use
style, especially when such a declaration includes initialization
and the variable being declared is never changed after the
declaration.  I don't use this style all the time but there are
instances where it clearly does better than the alternatives.

Third, what I think is the key difference between my choices and the
other styles debated is that, at least in this domain, my approach
is less dogmatic and more pragmatic.  Along this particular axis
flexibility is key.  (Having said that, I should add that I cannot
envision ever completely abandoning initializing-declarations.)

Fourth, I would not describe the notion that "declarations clutter
up [non-declaration statements]" as spin.  Don't get me wrong, there
are plenty of things that certain people say that I /do/ think of as
spin, but in my view this isn't one of them.  Also let me add that I
share your frustration that some people don't make more of an effort
to express themselves in more objective ways.  In this case though I
think what is being voiced is a good faith effort to express a
personal reaction and not a disingenuous and artificially negative
statement made purely to rile people up (which I guess is my own
rough translation of the word "spin").

Wwll, I guess that's all.  My thanks to everyone for their
attention.  I hope y'all have gotten some value from my musings.

Thread

What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-05 01:09 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-05 05:58 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 22:49 -0800
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-05 07:03 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 23:51 -0800
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 23:52 -0800
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Jan van den Broek <balglaas@dds.nl> - 2024-02-05 08:36 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-05 18:23 +0200
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-05 18:32 +0200
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-05 20:53 +0100
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-05 20:53 +0000
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 09:44 +0100
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 01:03 -0800
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-06 13:41 +0200
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 13:08 +0100
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-06 23:23 +0000
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 08:54 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 08:59 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 10:47 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 11:04 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:21 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 14:24 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:30 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 15:36 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 18:05 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-07 18:26 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 19:53 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-07 21:38 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 00:29 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:37 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 22:52 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 01:13 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 02:09 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 03:07 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 14:17 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-08 16:02 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-09 00:48 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 08:53 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-10 21:55 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 13:01 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 11:37 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 12:10 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 13:24 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 13:03 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 13:17 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 16:52 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 17:17 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-09 14:50 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 12:44 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:49 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 16:13 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 08:21 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:01 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-07 13:21 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 13:42 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 16:17 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-07 21:34 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-07 16:21 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-08 13:26 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 10:04 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 14:51 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-07 15:30 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 15:45 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:44 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 00:33 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 01:30 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-08 01:38 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 02:21 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 03:07 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 11:45 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 12:15 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 13:29 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 12:55 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 09:02 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-08 16:09 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-08 16:28 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-08 17:13 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-08 17:53 -0800
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-05 19:02 +0200
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-05 23:28 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-05 23:40 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-06 01:46 +0200
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 09:54 +0100
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-05 16:03 -0800
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-05 16:06 -0800
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-06 09:50 +0100
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 01:01 -0800
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-06 23:24 +0000
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 08:56 +0100
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-07 12:09 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 15:03 +0100
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-07 16:25 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 21:49 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 13:04 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-07 23:37 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-08 08:52 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-09 15:55 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 15:29 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-09 16:52 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 17:22 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-10 07:18 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-10 17:11 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-10 21:23 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-11 14:01 +0100
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-07 21:41 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 02:18 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-07 09:30 +0100
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-07 09:04 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-07 23:24 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 01:46 +0000
          Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 02:50 +0000
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 11:08 +0000
            Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-08 13:10 +0200
              Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-08 17:48 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-08 21:30 +0200
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-08 20:39 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 13:39 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 14:18 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-02-08 22:29 +0000
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-08 14:43 -0800
                Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-09 09:12 +0100
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-04 23:36 -0800
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-05 14:52 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-02-05 22:58 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-02-05 18:01 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-05 08:29 +0000
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 01:35 +0000
      Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-07 02:26 +0000
        Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-07 10:47 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2024-02-05 11:03 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-05 13:15 +0100
    Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-05 14:09 +0000
  Re: What I've learned in comp.lang.c Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-05 23:29 +0000

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