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Nope, you can't, because of the CRCW instuction (Was: parallel random-access machine)

From Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, comp.lang.prolog
Subject Nope, you can't, because of the CRCW instuction (Was: parallel random-access machine)
Date 2025-12-01 17:12 +0100
Message-ID <10gkept$vec1$1@solani.org> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <10gheso$tgp1$2@solani.org> <10gjqeu$t54i$2@solani.org> <187d12daedf1c2ff$5163849$2551467$c2365abb@news.newsdemon.com> <10gjtck$t77m$1@solani.org> <187d16ebd71933aa$26917881$2534374$c2565adb@news.newsdemon.com>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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Hi,

Simulation is not so easy. You would need an
element of non-determinism, or if you want
call it randomness. Because PRAM has this

instructions, ERCW, CRCW, etc..

- Concurrent read concurrent write (CRCW)—
multiple processors can read and write. A
CRCW PRAM is sometimes called a concurrent
random-access machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_RAM

Modelling via von Neuman what happens there
can be quite challenging. At least it doesn't
allow for a direct modelling.

What a later processor sees, depends extremly
on the timing and which processor "wins" the
write.

Also I don't know what it would buy you
intellectually to simulate a PRAM on a random
von Neuman machine. The random von Neuman

machine could need more steps than the PRAM
in summary, because it has to simulate a PRAM.
But I guess its the intellectual questioning

that needs also a revision when confronted
with the new architecture of unified memory
and tensor processing cores.

Bye

Maciej Woźniak schrieb:
> On 12/1/2025 12:15 PM, Mild Shock wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>>  > No, they don't, they just add one (or some)
>>  > more layer on top of it.
>>
>> Techically they are not von Neuman architecture.
>> Unified Memory with Multiple Tensor Cores is
>> not von Neuman architecture. 
> 
> We can use von Neumann architecture
> to emulate other architectures, but as long as it
> is performed by our computers it is technically
> von Neumann's.
>

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Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-30 13:38 +0100
  An old Busy Beaver ASIC (Application-Specific Integrated Circuit) (Was: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-30 13:54 +0100
  An old Busy Beaver ASIC (Application-Specific Integrated Circuit) (Was: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-30 13:55 +0100
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          Write ZFC formulas on a tape (of a Turing machine) (Re: BB(745) is independent of ZFC ) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 17:18 +0100
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              A logical calculus in nervous activity [McCulloch & Pitts 1943] (Re: Turing machines have neurons) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 17:20 +0100
                Busy Beaver and Theory Consistency (Was: A logical calculus in nervous activity [McCulloch & Pitts 1943]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 17:39 +0100
                Busy Beaver and Theory Consistency (Was: A logical calculus in nervous activity [McCulloch & Pitts 1943]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 17:43 +0100
                Re: Busy Beaver and Theory Consistency (Was: A logical calculus in nervous activity [McCulloch & Pitts 1943]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 23:18 +0100
      Re: What is analog computing nowadays? (Re: An old Busy Beaver ASIC (Application-Specific Integrated Circuit) (Was: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2025-12-01 12:09 +0100
        parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM (Was: What is analog computing nowadays?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-01 12:15 +0100
          Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM (Was: What is analog computing nowadays?) Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2025-12-01 13:23 +0100
            Nope, you can't, because of the CRCW instuction (Was: parallel random-access machine) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-01 17:12 +0100
              Algorithm introduced in Hogwild! SGD (Niu et al., 2011) (Was: Nope, you can't, because of the CRCW instuction) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-01 17:31 +0100
                PRAMs might be closer to physics: Boltzman machines, etc.. (Was: Algorithm introduced in Hogwild! SGD) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-01 18:02 +0100
              Re: Nope, you can't, because of the CRCW instuction (Was: parallel random-access machine) Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2025-12-01 17:59 +0100
                PRAMs might be closer to physics: Boltzman machines, etc.. (Re: Nope, you can't, because of the CRCW instuction) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-01 18:05 +0100
                PRAMs might be closer to physics: Boltzman machines, etc.. (Re: Nope, you can't, because of the CRCW instuction) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-01 18:08 +0100
                Physics more difficult than Rasperry LED cube? (Was: PRAMs might be closer to physics: Boltzman machines, etc..) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-01 18:25 +0100
            Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM (Was: What is analog computing nowadays?) Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-03 07:17 +0100
              Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM (Was: What is  analog computing nowadays?) Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-03 06:46 +0000
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                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-04 07:50 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-04 09:57 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-06 17:02 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-07 10:22 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-07 10:39 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-07 10:46 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-12-07 11:42 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-12-07 16:26 +0200
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                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-12 00:49 -0800
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                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-14 10:25 -0800
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2025-12-14 21:22 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-14 12:52 -0800
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                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-14 10:27 -0800
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-14 10:58 -0800
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-15 07:50 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2025-12-15 14:05 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-16 08:44 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2025-12-16 22:58 +0100
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                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2025-12-17 14:00 +0100
                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-17 10:49 -0800
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                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2025-12-17 11:58 -0600
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                Re: parallel random-access machine (parallel RAM or PRAM) "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2025-12-12 11:35 +0100
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  Re: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-11-30 14:06 +0100
    You shouldn't use NPM hacked services (Was: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-30 22:27 +0100
      Its a subconscious hypothesis (Was: You shouldn't use NPM hacked services) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-30 22:33 +0100
        What if of the cosmos does a BB dance? (Was: Its a subconscious hypothesis) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-30 22:43 +0100
          Re: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance? (Was: Its a subconscious hypothesis) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-01 23:43 +0100
          Re: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-01 23:45 +0100
            newsreader where you can see the message source (Was: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 00:00 +0100
              Re: newsreader where you can see the message source (Was: What if of the  cosmos does a BB dance?) Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-02 03:10 +0000
                Re: newsreader where you can see the message source (Was: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 11:51 +0100
                Re: newsreader where you can see the message source (Was: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance?) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-02 20:36 +0100
                Re: newsreader where you can see the message source (Was: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance?) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 21:42 -0800
                Orbits of planets in the Sol System (was: newsreader where you can see the message source) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-04 03:29 +0100
                Orbits of planets in the Sol System Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-04 03:30 +0100
              Re: newsreader where you can see the message source (Was: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance?) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-02 20:35 +0100
                Spock thinks I am interested in his gibberish (Re: newsreader where you can see the message source) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 23:22 +0100
                Is it like "Wirres Mückengelaber" ? (Was: Spock thinks I am interested in his gibberish) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 23:28 +0100
            newsreader where you can see the message source (Re: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 00:11 +0100
            Re: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-03 07:22 +0100
              Re: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-03 08:27 -0800
                Re: What if of the cosmos does a BB dance? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-04 07:57 +0100
        Re: Its a subconscious hypothesis (Was: You shouldn't use NPM hacked services) Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2025-11-30 23:14 +0100
      Re: You shouldn't use NPM hacked services (Was: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-01 23:23 +0100
        Re: You shouldn't use NPM hacked services (Was: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-02 00:05 +0100
          Re: You shouldn't use NPM hacked services Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-02 20:29 +0100
    What Spock aka Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn missed (Was: Different Hubble Theories: de Sitter Energy) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-03 01:09 +0100
  The size of a Gödel sentence G (Re: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-03 09:00 +0100
  The size of a Gödel sentence G (Re: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-03 09:00 +0100
    Attacking the Busy Beaver 5 [1989] (Re: The size of a Gödel sentence G) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-12-03 09:10 +0100
  Re: Could AlphaEvolve find the sixth busy beaver ? Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-12-04 12:59 +0800

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