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Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory

Newsgroups sci.logic
Date 2023-06-08 08:04 -0700
References <1941110f-b45f-4e42-8290-9f7949082816n@googlegroups.com> <bde26212-42b5-46b4-9756-cbc912d3e8c2n@googlegroups.com> <3c185f1d-c3cf-4319-87c9-97c58e3ce0f2n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID <0d9b45a0-028b-4226-befe-1e11b5a90c82n@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory
From Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca>

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On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 4:03:16 AM UTC-4, Mild Shock wrote:

> > > The following from Terence Tao's blog dated 2007-08-27: 
> > > 
> > > "It seems that one cannot express 
> > > 
> > > "'For every x and x’, there exists a y depending only on x and a y’ depending only on x’ such that Q(x,x’,y,y’) is true' 
> > > 
> > > "in first order logic!" 
> > > 
> > > https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/08/27/printer-friendly-css-and-nonfirstorderizability/#more-172 
> > > 
> > > Following is my attempt to formalize this statement using the notation of set theory in DC Proof: 
> > > 
> > > ALL(a):[a in u => EXIST(b):[b in u & (a,b) in r]] 
> > > 
> > > & ALL(x):ALL(y):[x in u & y in u => ALL(a):ALL(b):ALL(c):ALL(d):[(a,b,c,d) in q 
> > > <=> (a,b,c,d) in u4 & [a=x & b=y & (x,c) in r & (y,d) in r]]] 
> > > 
> > > where u4 = u*u*u*u (Cartesian product) 
> > > 
> > > Comments? 
> > > 

> The Problem is Terrence Tao wrote: 
> "I can’t quite show that (*) is 
> not expressible in first-order logic" 
> 
> And you find only some nuggets dealing more with 
> the problem in the comment section. The sentence 
> in question is then this second order logic sentence, 
> 
> when skolemize it: 
> 
> /* Terrence Taos Example Skolemized */ 
> ∃f∃g∀x∀yQ(x,y,f(x),g(y)) 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branching_quantifier 
> 
[snip]

Thanks, but no thanks. I will stick to ordinary set theory. It seems to be up to the job in this case.

Dan

Download my DC Proof 2.0 freeware at http://www.dcproof.com
Visit my Math Blog at http://www.dcproof.wordpress.com

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Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-07 20:25 -0700
  Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-07 22:11 -0700
    Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2023-06-07 23:34 -0700
      Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 07:31 -0700
  Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 00:51 -0700
    Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 01:03 -0700
      Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 01:19 -0700
      Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 08:04 -0700
        Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 11:10 -0700
          Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 11:40 -0700
          Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 11:51 -0700
            Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 12:16 -0700
              Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 12:34 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 13:47 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 13:57 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 14:11 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 14:42 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 14:45 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 14:51 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 14:57 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 15:04 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 15:09 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 15:28 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 15:48 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-08 15:54 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 19:43 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 19:32 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 14:38 -0700
  Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-08 21:19 -0700
    Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-09 00:21 -0700
      Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-09 00:28 -0700
        Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-09 00:34 -0700
          Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-09 00:48 -0700
      Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-09 06:57 -0700
        Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-06-09 21:04 +0200
          Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-09 13:28 -0700
            Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-09 15:42 -0700
              Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-09 15:58 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 13:36 -0700
              Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-09 18:17 -0700
              Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-09 18:20 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 04:30 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 04:46 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-10 10:52 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 11:06 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 11:11 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 11:17 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-12 00:37 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-12 00:38 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-12 07:22 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-12 08:17 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-10 11:21 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 11:27 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-10 15:10 -0700
                Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-11 02:02 -0700
    Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2023-06-09 12:03 -0700
      Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-06-09 21:12 +0200
        Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2023-06-09 21:22 +0200
          Re: Expressability in the notation of set theory Mild Shock <bursejan@gmail.com> - 2023-06-09 12:33 -0700

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