Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #568527

Re: Watch problem

From	Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Watch problem
Date	2021-12-04 02:30 -0500
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<sof5fa$1d5t$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <61a88c60$0$29473$426a34cc@news.free.fr> <j0u2gnFhg69U1@mid.individual.net> <j0u3ttFho17U1@mid.individual.net> <61a9e7a0$0$1346$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <j10gvhF1brsU1@mid.individual.net>

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On 12/4/2021 1:42 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
> Am 03.12.2021 um 10:47 schrieb Python:

>> This stuff about aliens is idiotic Thomas. Synchronizing clocks mutually
>> at rest make sense in the context of some experiments made by a single
>> person, a single team or cooperating teams accross one or more labs
>> or devices. To begin with identical clocks, using the same unit are
>> supposed to be used everywhere.
> 
> No.
> 
> SRT is not about 'some epxeriments'!!!
> 
> SRT is a main part of theoretical physics and influences, what we think 
> about how nature functions.

Python was writing about a theoretical experiment when he wrote "some 
experiment".  Say measuring something happening on Alpha Centauri and 
needing accurate time measurements of the events for the data to be 
useful.  You'd want synchronized clocks for that.
> 
> So. Einstein wrote not about certain experiments, but about the nature 
> of space and time.
> 
> The question is, whether or not his method makes sense.

Since relativity has never failed when GR/SR are used within their 
domains, then yes it does make sense.
> 
> I would say:
> 
> no SRT is a piece of garbadge, which is seemingly intentionally created, 
> to prevent people from doing exactly that: thinking about the nature of 
> space and time.

Scientists don't care what you think.  Scientists care whether it makes 
accurate predictions and is consistent with existing results. As I 
stated, relativity hasn't failed so far, nor is there anything better 
yet.  But you must be popular with the anti-relativity cranks.
> 
> If he wanted to tell about the local time at a remote location and how 
> that would be perceived by remote observers, than a discussion of the 
> distortion of such measurements by relative motion and by distance would 
> have been mandatory.

The "distortion" is Einstein's relativity!
> 
> But in fact he ascribed the effects of relative motion erroneously to 
> the real behaviour of objects on the remote side.

No, on the relative motion of both sides.
> 
> But that is not even nonsense, but pure bunk, because the objects on the 
> remote side cannot possibly be affected by relative motion of a remote 
> observer

???

Relative to what, the local observer?
> 
>>> This remote clock there is in synch with Earth time by definition.
>>
>> Not necessarily. You take for granted something that is NOT until
>> you have a common procedure to check if it is the case. Einstein
>> wrote part I.1 for this simple and fundamental reason.
> 
> No, things do not exist, because we can see them.
> 
> Also invisible things can be real. Therefore you need to drop the 
> requirement, that something real must also be visible.

It must be visible for us to know about the real thing.
> 
> And: in fact we could synchronize clocks in cosmological distances only, 
> if we had communication partners there.
> 
> But the required procedure would not function like Einstein wrote it 
> would function.
> 
> Einstein erroneously assumed, that time is universal and remote 
> observers could measure the same absolute time,

There is no absolute time in relativity!

> hence only velocity 
> (also meant as relative to the universe) would make a difference.
> 
> But in fact only local time makes sense and we have neither absolute 
> time, nor absolute space, against which velocity could eventually be 
> measured.

Velocity is relative, between the observer and observed.
> 
> So, we had to communicate with someone remote. And I assumed 
> three-legged aliens.
> 
> (But you can assume whatever you like.)
> 
> Now we send signals and receive answers.

Why are the three legged aliens necessary?  We send signals and receive 
answers from the Moon without any aliens there. (Except us, when Apollo 
missions planted the laser reflectors we're still using)
> 
> To synchronize clocks, we first need to negotiate the meaning of the 
> term 'clock' and how that should look like.
> 
> Now we cannot assume, that processes here on Earth have the same 
> frequency as processes at that remote location.

Clocks are what measure time.
> 
> We cannot even assume, that future for us is future there, too.

????
> 
> So we need to find out the relation of frequency in equivalent processes.

First Postulate states the laws of physics and the processes are 
identical both here and there.
> 
> That could eventually be a certain frequency of a gas, which we could 
> identify as similar. From this we could built a clock, on which both 
> sides could agree.

No "both sides" needed.  In Einstein's work, the clocks are assumed 
identical. In reality they need to have the same accuracy and tick the 
same units.
> 
> Then we needed to estimate the distance and relative velocity of the 
> remote system.
> 
> We could do that by sending a signal there, which is immidiatly 
> retransmitted there.

As the Apollo laser reflectors do.
> 
> Then we could measure the delay and calculate the distance.
> 
> Next we need to fix a certain reference point in time, from where the 
> local calender starts the new year and the calender itself (here: birth 
> of Christ, there: ???).

Irrelevant. We use our time.

> We could also measure Doppler shift and calcule relative motion.

Yes.
> 
> Then we could create a system here, which is in synch with the remote 
> clocks there and those aliens could do the same, but with our clocks.

If there are any aliens, and if so, if they wish to do so. But they 
aren't needed, just like with the Moon. We just use our time system.

<bla bla bla>

> Einstein wrote nowhere, that the addition of the dealy would be required.
> 
> He did not even calculate this delay or even mentioned it.

It's part of his time synchronization test procedure!
> 
> Now you say, he had done that and only forgot to write something about 
> that delay, because it is so obvious.

It's part of his time synchronization test procedure!
> 
> But what is written in a text is relevant, and not, what you think it 
> should contain.
> 
> Therefore a required statement is missing, if it is missing in the text. 
> A reader must not alter a paper, only because it should contain 
> something which it does not.

It's in there. Remember the paper was written for other scientists of 
his time, not ignoramuses 115 years later.

Einstein didn't write down 2+2=4, either.

Thread

Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-22 22:25 +0000
  Re: Watch problem robby <me@pla.net.invalid> - 2021-11-23 08:15 +0100
  Re: Watch problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2021-11-23 08:18 +0100
    Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-11-23 00:57 -0800
  Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-23 13:09 +0000
    Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-11-23 05:37 -0800
    Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-23 20:39 +0000
      Re: Watch problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2021-11-24 01:44 +0100
        Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-24 12:25 +0000
    Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-24 17:24 +0000
      Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-25 13:46 +0000
        Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-25 14:09 +0000
          Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-25 16:19 +0000
            Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-25 19:52 +0000
              Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-26 02:20 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-26 14:24 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-26 14:37 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-26 18:18 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-26 19:34 +0000
                Re: Watch problem rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2021-11-26 11:45 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-26 21:32 +0000
                Re: Watch problem rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2021-11-26 14:02 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-28 20:49 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-28 20:47 +0000
              Re: Watch problem "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2021-11-28 10:03 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-28 14:06 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-28 14:13 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-28 14:49 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-28 15:11 +0000
                Re: Watch problem rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2021-11-28 06:13 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-28 10:53 -0500
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-28 16:32 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-01 15:57 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Harif Kuloo <bbcs@uioas.ar> - 2021-12-02 19:42 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-28 19:13 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-28 20:49 -0500
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-29 13:53 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-29 11:06 -0500
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-29 17:14 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-29 16:52 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-29 17:08 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-11-30 00:10 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-30 13:04 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-30 10:33 -0500
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-30 16:41 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-30 16:51 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-30 18:08 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-30 18:44 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-30 18:55 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-30 19:30 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-11-30 23:00 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-11-30 23:12 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-01 16:13 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-01 15:29 +0000
        Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-25 14:47 +0000
          Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-25 16:19 +0000
            Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-25 19:56 +0000
              Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-11-25 21:02 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-11-25 20:52 +0000
              Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-11-26 02:20 +0000
    Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-11-25 07:49 +0100
      Re: Watch problem Nabor Nave <er@cwe.re> - 2021-11-27 18:22 +0000
        Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-11-28 07:45 +0100
          Re: Watch problem rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2021-11-28 06:04 -0800
            Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-28 20:01 +0000
          Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-28 20:15 +0000
            Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-11-29 08:24 +0100
              Re: Watch problem rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2021-11-29 06:24 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-29 23:03 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-29 23:13 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-11-30 00:18 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-29 23:27 +0000
              Re: Watch problem Chason Aceta <pipre@cvbe.er> - 2021-11-29 23:23 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-01 09:23 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Justo Lugo <rety@cvb.rt> - 2021-12-01 10:47 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-02 07:53 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-12-02 10:06 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-12-02 04:04 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-03 09:23 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-03 09:47 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-12-03 10:47 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-12-03 02:11 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Harif Kuloo <bbcs@uioas.ar> - 2021-12-03 12:12 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-04 16:21 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Harif Kuloo <bbcs@uioas.ar> - 2021-12-03 12:02 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-04 07:42 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-12-04 02:30 -0500
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-12-04 01:15 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-12-04 14:29 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-05 21:38 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2021-12-04 16:58 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-12-04 11:29 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-12-04 20:06 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-05 20:47 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-04 16:41 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-04 16:51 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@python.invalid> - 2021-12-05 13:21 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-05 13:08 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@example.invalid> - 2021-12-07 16:42 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-12-07 07:51 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-07 16:47 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Reese Page <uteb@dlwcrt.ca> - 2021-12-07 16:53 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2021-12-08 03:20 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Reese Page <uteb@dlwcrt.ca> - 2021-12-08 20:39 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Reese Page <uteb@dlwcrt.ca> - 2021-12-07 16:48 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2021-12-08 03:22 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-07 22:38 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@example.invalid> - 2021-12-07 23:56 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-12-05 07:06 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-08 08:53 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Python <python@example.invalid> - 2021-12-08 12:56 +0100
                Re: Watch problem Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2021-12-08 04:35 -0800
                Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-08 13:47 +0000
                Re: Watch problem Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2021-12-10 06:49 +0100
      Re: Watch problem Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2021-12-01 16:03 +0000

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