Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #655980

Re: Space-time interval (2)

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From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
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Subject	Re: Space-time interval (2)
Date	Thu, 15 Aug 2024 08:13:38 +0200
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Am Mittwoch000014, 14.08.2024 um 00:01 schrieb Richard Hachel:
> Le 13/08/2024 à 19:53, "Paul.B.Andersen" a écrit :
>>
>> So you have given up gesticulating about universal anisochrony
>> and why that makes it impossible to have synchronous clocks
>> in Oslo and Paris?
>>
>> Try to explain it again?
>>
>> |> Den 22.07.2024 21:37, skrev Paul.B.Andersen:
>> |>>
>> |>> You know of course that all clocks in the same time zone
>> |>> are synchronous. In France and Norway clocks are currently
>> |>> showing UTC + 2 hour, so my clock and your clock are actually
>> |>> synchronous.
>> |>>
>> |>> Please explain why our clocks are NOT synchronous.
>> |>> (To within few seconds|
>> |
>>
>> |> Den 22.07.2024 23:55, Richard Hachel responded:>
>> |>> But I keep explaining it to you.
>> |>>
>> |>> This is a property of space that can be called universal anisochrony.
>> |>>
>> |>> This does not translate into the idea that the “plan of present time”
>> |>> so dear to physicists does not exist, it is a thought that seems
>> |>> logical to them, but it is an abstract thought.
>> |>>
>>
>> Let's assume that both clocks show UTC + 2h within a second.
>>
>> I leave Oslo Airport (Gardemoen Airport) when the watch on
>> the airport shows 12.00.00 ± 1 s
>> I arrive at Paris Airport (Charles De Gaulle Airport) when
>> the watch on the airport shows 13.30.32 ± 1 s.
>> The difference is T = 1h 30m 32 ± 2 s
>> The distance in the ground frame between the airports is
>> L = 1358.03 ± 0.1 km
>>
>> v = T/L = 250.01 ± 0.11 m/s = 900.0 ± 0.4 km/h
>>
>> Please explain why this is not a real speed
>> in the ground frame.
>>
>> Richard, will you flee yet again? :-D
> 
> No, no, I am not trying to escape. I have forty years of relativistic 
> concepts behind me, and I have a perfect grasp of how things should be 
> taught.
> There are several keys to understanding RR, and either none of these 
> keys are understood, or they are half understood, and that is not 
> satisfactory.
> The first key, which is absolutely necessary to open the theory, is the 
> notion of universal anisochrony.
> This made a lot of people laugh 40 years ago, because people did not 
> understand this term, nor what I meant by it.
> Today, it is a little less funny, and many ask me to explain it in a 
> simple way, because the concept, although elementary, is not obvious to 
> everyone.
> What is universal anisochrony?
> It is a property of space, just as universal gravitation is a property 
> of bodies.
> This means that the notion of absolute universal present is an abstract 
> thought.
> There is no present moment at this moment that is at the level of a 
> planet that orbits Altair, for example, and that corresponds 
> reciprocally to my present moment.
> In short, the notion of a flat present does not exist.
> It is a thought anchored in man (like the flat earth before), but which 
> is only a human a priori.
> Strangely, this simple idea, which corresponds perfectly to an 
> intelligent physics, is abandoned by men, while they understand very 
> well a more difficult concept which is the relativity of the internal 
> chronotropy of watches by change of inertial reference (gamma factor).
> 
> We come back to Paris, and to Oslo.
> 
> There is therefore a natural anisochrony between Paris and Oslo.
> 
> There is no "flat present", "horizontal plane of present time" between 
> Paris and Oslo. I repeat, it is useless, false and abstract.
> 
> So there is a natural, irreversible gap between the two. If we 
> synchronize the watches on Paris, an event that will occur in Oslo will 
> not exist for Paris.
> 
> An event that will occur in Paris will not exist in Oslo.
> 
> This event is only found in the "future of the other".
> 
> And so on for the entire universe.
> 
> We will always have a time interval, an anisochrony,
> 
> which will be related to the distance.
> 
> "My present is not your present, and your present is not my present, 
> there is no absolute universal simultaneity"
> 
> So how do we make all this agree anyway?
> 
> We will create a universal time, an abstract universal present, which 
> does not exist, and which corresponds to a synchronization made by an 
> observer placed in a fourth spatial dimension which does not exist, but 
> which is very useful, because mathematically,
> if it is placed very far, perpendicular, and at an equal distance
> from all the points of the three-dimensional metric universe which is 
> ours, it observes all the points in a constant perfect simultaneity.
> 
> This point is abstract, does not exist, but allows us to use a universal 
> time and a perfect present time plan.


My idea about 'local time' is similar to the infinity sign, which is 
kind of Moebius-strip.

The strip is a representation of the imaginary behaviour of time, which 
is 'anti-symmetric'.

This means: you need two rotations to return, while usually you need 
only one.

After one rotation over a full circle the situation flips over from 
forward flowing time to backwards flowing time.

That 'backwards flow' is invisible, hence we observe only forward time 
and only the 'real' part. This is represented by the adverse side of the 
Moebius strip.

Now the opposite side exists, too, but experiences a timeline, which 
flows into the opposite direction than ours (thou invisible).

Now we are invisible there, since our time flows backwards in comparison 
to time there, too.

Now time goes on and the ribbon itself moves on in kind of 8-shape.

Then always an opposite would exist, which passes right through our 
world, where time runs backwards from our perspective, which we cannot see.

But we will move 'sideways' in this picture, because we need to follow 
the strip itself, which drags us through time.

This will leave us in the 'cross' of these two strips (which are only 
one), because the opposite world moves through time, too, but into the 
opposite direction.

TH


> But this perfect present time does not exist.
> 
> This does not prevent that in our universe, each point considered is, in 
> general at a different distance from me, and that it is impossible for 
> me to synchronize with it, without desynchronizing myself from it, and 
> without desynchronizing myself from the others and so on.
> 
> R.H.

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Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-12 17:35 +0000
  Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-12 19:39 +0200
  Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-12 21:06 +0200
    Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-12 20:25 +0000
      Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-12 23:16 +0200
      Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-13 12:45 +0200
        Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-13 12:46 +0000
          Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-13 16:15 +0200
            Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-13 16:37 +0200
            Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-13 16:50 +0000
          Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-13 19:54 +0200
            Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-13 21:20 +0000
            Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-13 21:25 +0000
            Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-13 22:01 +0000
              Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-13 22:12 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-13 22:42 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-13 23:07 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-13 21:48 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-14 09:40 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-14 17:15 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-14 11:06 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-14 16:00 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-14 22:49 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-15 09:43 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 18:45 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-15 10:29 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 19:34 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-16 11:42 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-16 10:45 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-16 10:55 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-16 22:20 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-15 10:25 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-15 17:34 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-16 11:47 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-16 22:10 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-17 10:50 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-17 13:08 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-18 11:11 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-18 12:06 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-19 10:27 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-19 10:52 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-19 11:51 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-20 17:22 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-22 00:32 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-16 22:16 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-14 21:53 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-14 22:04 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-14 20:27 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-15 11:42 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-14 06:25 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Mubarak Schitov <uaka@acikt.ru> - 2024-08-14 05:47 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-14 12:25 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-14 14:36 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-14 12:54 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-14 14:59 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-15 13:18 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-14 15:08 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-14 13:24 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-14 14:39 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-14 17:37 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-14 18:11 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-14 20:29 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-14 19:20 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-08-14 12:24 -0700
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-14 21:50 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-14 22:36 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-15 06:50 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Belgov Turpaev <eesssu@unuvpat.ru> - 2024-08-15 10:58 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-14 20:44 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-15 12:46 +0300
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-15 12:10 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 14:29 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-15 14:52 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 16:58 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 17:16 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-15 13:02 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 15:15 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-15 13:44 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-15 17:31 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 17:37 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-15 18:04 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 18:26 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-15 19:46 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-15 18:05 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-15 20:27 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-16 15:10 +0300
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-16 12:38 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-17 11:14 +0300
                Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-15 21:12 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-15 21:22 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-15 21:31 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-14 19:54 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-14 20:47 +0200
              Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-14 19:34 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-14 17:43 +0000
                Re: Space-time interval (2) "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-15 12:22 +0200
                Re: Space-time interval (2) Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-15 17:29 +0200
              Re: Space-time interval (2) Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-15 08:13 +0200
          Re: Space-time interval (2) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-15 12:33 +0300
            Re: Space-time interval (2)  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-15 11:24 +0000
              Re: Space-time interval (2) Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-15 13:49 +0200
              Re: Space-time interval (2) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-17 11:18 +0300
        Re: Space-time interval (2) guido wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> - 2024-08-14 21:01 +0200

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