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Re: energy and mass

From The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity, sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: energy and mass
Date 2026-02-12 11:28 -0800
Organization The Starmaker Organization
Message-ID <698E29F1.72A1@ix.netcom.com> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <hignok9mgdv6m1g84662bekro4je9sjm0s@4ax.com> <10mkm4g$fm1r$1@gwaiyur.mb-net.net> <j3trokpcd3babrg58d4drbrtl8difoh00t@4ax.com> <1rqfmxt.jp4fr16u1qtvN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <fk8sok1t8vbe7r6nhgl5v8eidkl7mnbcns@4ax.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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john larkin wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 19:39:50 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
> 
> >john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 14:55:27 +0100, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
> >> <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> >john larkin wrote:
> >> >> [...] (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> >> >>> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote or quoted:
> >> >>>> Two gamma rays (zero mass total) can collide to produce a particle
> >> >>>> pair (which has mass.)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> [irrelevant and misleading/wrong calculation]
> >> >>
> >> >> The gamma rays had no gravitational effect on the rest of the mass in
> >> >> the universe,
> >> >
> >> >Wrong.
> >> >
> >> >> up until the instant that they collided
> >> >                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >Nonsense.
> >> >
> >> >> to form a particle pair.
> >> >
> >> >Wrong.
> >> >
> >> >> Then a gravitational object magically appeared.
> >> >
> >> >Wrong.  Since the postulation and confirmation of general relativity we know
> >> >that gravitational effects are not (solely) based on mass, but rather more
> >> >generally on the density of stress, energy, and momentum:
> >> >
> >> >The Einstein Field Equations are in units where c = 1
> >> >
> >> >  G_ab + Lambda g_ab = 8pi G T_ab,
> >> >
> >> >where
> >> >
> >> >  G_ab = R_ab - 1/2 R g_ab
> >> >
> >> >is (a component of) the Einstein tensor, R_ab is the Ricci curvature tensor,
> >> >g_ab is the metric tensor, R = g^ab R_ab is the Ricci curvature scalar,
> >> >Lambda is the cosmological constant, and T_ab is the
> >> >(stress--)energy--momentum tensor.
> >> >
> >> >Gravitional effects are understood (in GR) as a consequence of the curvature
> >> >of spacetime which is described by the quantities on the left-hand side of
> >> >the equations.
> >> >
> >> >The energy--momentum tensor of a 1+3-dimensional spacetime has 16
> >> >components, but it is antisymmetric so only 10 of them are unique.  Anyhow,
> >> >the time--time component is proportional to the energy density which is at
> >> >relative rest is proportional to the mass density:
> >> >
> >> >  T_00 ~ rho_E ~ dE_0/dV = c^2 dm/dV = c^2 rho_m.
> >> >
> >> >> Does't that create a spherical, symmetric, expanding bubble of gravity?
> >> >
> >> >It does not.
> >> >
> >> >> I'm just an engineer,
> >> >
> >> >IOW: This is way over your head.
> >> >
> >> >As an engineer, though, you should appreciate the requirement to agree and
> >> >conform to standards.  That includes network standards which you keep
> >> >violating by your address munging:
> >> >
> >> ><https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5536.html#section-3.1.2>
> >> >
> >> >> but I think this is real.
> >> >
> >> >It is not.  You are arguing from your ignorance.
> >> >
> >> >> People say it's not technically possible,
> >> >
> >> >It is possible, just very difficult:
> >> >
> >> >The total energy of both photons has at least to be equal to the sum of the
> >> >rest energies of the particle and antiparticle.
> >> >
> >> >You would have to separate the particle and the antiparticle to prevent them
> >> >from annihilating again, which means that the total energy of both photons
> >> >has to be much larger than the sum of the rest energies of the particle and
> >> >the antiparticle.  You need energy for the magnetic fields that keep them
> >> >separated.
> >> >
> >> >> or that the efffect is too small to worry about,
> >> >
> >> >A single electron is not very useful, indeed, and you need more energy to
> >> >produce it this way than it could do usable work because it needs kinetic
> >> >energy *and* rest energy E_0 = m_e c^2.
> >> >
> >> >> or some other excuse for not saying that it could happen.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is an electrical equivalent. A metal sphere could suddenly
> >> >> become charged,
> >> >
> >> >No, the total electric charge is conserved.  What happens in "charging" is
> >> >that electric charge is added from or removed to somewhere else.
> >> >
> >> >Electric charge can also be "induced" by bringing an electrically charge in
> >> >the vicinity of an electrically neutral object.  Then the carriers of
> >> >electric charge in the formerly neutral object arrange themselves such that
> >> >the distribution of electric charge is no longer uniform:
> >> >
> >> >  .---------.     ,---------.
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  '---------'     '---------'
> >> >
> >> >  Some time later:
> >> >
> >> >  .---------.     ,---------.
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  '---------'     '---------'
> >> >
> >> >> and it would create a symmetric e-field pulse that
> >> >> expands at the speed of light, like a wave, but it isn't
> >> >> electromagnetic.
> >> >
> >> >Nonsense.  A changing electric field induces a magnetic field, and a
> >> >changing magnetic field induces an electric field:
> >> >
> >> >  ? ? B = ?? J + (1/c^2) ?E/?t,
> >> >  ? ? E = -?B/?t.
> >>
> >> Do photons have the same gravitational effects as their mass
> >> equivalents?
> >
> >Yes.
> >(there is no such thing as 'mass-equivalence, there is only mass-energy)
> 
> If e and m are the same thing, why do people use two symbols?


They are not the 'samething', they are two different things,  E and M.


Before the Big Bang only E existed.


The Big Bang was the creation of M.


fire and earth are two elements.











> 
> Do photons attract one another? Do they bounce off one another?
> 
> If you apply Newton's law of gravitation to photons, the force will be
> enormous when they get in a close intersection. Wouldn't that fuzz up
> images at cosmological distances?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> John Larkin
> Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
> Lunatic Fringe Electronics

-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

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Thread

Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 14:55 +0100
  Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 14:58 +0100
  Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 07:43 -0800
    Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 16:23 +0000
      Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 08:44 -0800
        Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 17:15 +0000
          Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-13 13:45 +0000
        Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:12 +1100
          Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 20:26 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 15:56 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 14:17 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 13:56 +0100
              Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-14 09:39 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-14 09:40 -0800
      Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 22:08 +0100
        Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 10:07 -0800
      Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 22:57 +0100
        Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 10:11 -0800
      Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 00:33 +0100
    Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 19:39 +0100
      Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 11:04 -0800
        Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 19:22 +0000
          Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 20:16 +0000
          Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-12 15:50 -0500
            Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 21:29 +0000
              Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 01:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-12 20:59 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 03:15 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 11:27 +0100
                Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-13 10:09 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 17:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-13 10:29 +0000
                Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-13 10:21 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 17:34 +0100
              Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-21 15:24 +0000
            Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 23:12 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 23:27 +0100
        Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-02-12 11:28 -0800
        Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 22:29 +0100
        Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:22 +1100
          Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 19:58 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 07:13 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 00:44 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 03:52 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-14 21:59 +0100
      Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 09:50 -0800
    Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 22:03 +0100
      Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 23:12 +0100
        Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:34 +1100
          Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 20:35 +0100
            Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-14 22:57 +0100
          Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-14 21:59 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-15 17:50 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-15 12:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-15 23:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-15 21:48 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-15 08:13 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-15 21:48 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-15 13:11 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Seymour Dobrov <ouo@yosdm.ru> - 2026-02-15 19:49 +0000
      Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 10:04 -0800
      Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 10:05 -0800
    Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:00 +1100
      Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 10:19 -0800

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