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Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging

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On Monday, 3 June 2024 16:27:29 CEST Donald Stufft wrote:
> 
> In the interim the packaging toolchain evolved to the point that having
> distutils in the stdlib was no longer of general benefit, and in fact made
> things worse because people had grown accustomed to things like `from
> distutils import setup` being transparently monkeypatched to be setuptools
> under the covers.

The way that distutils could not be relied upon to behave in a sensible way is 
entirely the fault of the developer(s) of setuptools having free rein to 
corrupt the Python packaging stack. In environments where I wanted to install 
to a particular location only the software I had already acquired, which is 
largely what the deployment element involved in distribution packaging can be 
reduced to, I did not want to be dealing with setuptools when distutils would 
do, nor with random hacks introduced to make distutils behave like setuptools.

For a while, I routinely stripped out unnecessary setuptools references from 
setup.py files, put distutils support back in, and mostly got the desired 
effect. But in the Python world, once someone teases some fancy new features 
and they catch on, everybody else has to hold on for the wild ride and budget 
for the consequences.

(For some software I have been trying to package, I see now that there is no 
setup.py or anything else, with some more "magic" introduced to be processed 
by yet another tool. I apparently have to get with it, or something to that 
effect, which severely diminishes my interest in packaging that software at 
all. The outcome actually affects the Debian project directly, not that very 
many people seem to care, however.)

I suppose it also didn't help that distutils entered the standard library in 
the era where it was apparently acceptable to get one's code included and to 
then declare the job done. Back when Python 3 was initially introduced, I 
suggested that the standard library be reviewed and fixed up, especially since 
there was going to be a compatibility break anyway, but there was no appetite 
for it.

Still, I appreciate you engaging with this forum, even if it probably means 
having to defend decisions made by others.

Paul

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Thread

python devs complaining about debian packaging Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-26 01:50 +0200
  Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Ian Norton <inorton@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 03:40 +0200
    Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Paul Boddie <paul@boddie.org.uk> - 2024-05-26 14:10 +0200
      Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-26 15:30 +0200
        Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Danial Behzadi <dani.behzi@ubuntu.com> - 2024-05-26 15:30 +0200
    Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2024-05-26 15:40 +0200
      Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging "Donald Stufft" <donald@stufft.io> - 2024-05-27 01:30 +0200
        Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-05-27 04:10 +0200
          Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Paul Boddie <paul@boddie.org.uk> - 2024-06-03 00:20 +0200
            Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-06-03 07:40 +0200
              Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging "Donald Stufft" <donald@stufft.io> - 2024-06-03 16:30 +0200
                Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Paul Boddie <paul@boddie.org.uk> - 2024-06-03 18:00 +0200
                Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-06-03 21:10 +0200
  Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging weepingclown <weepingclown@disroot.org> - 2024-05-26 15:00 +0200

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