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Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging

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Overall, I think that's quite reasonable, but I think I need to pick at the both sides way this is framed.

I don't recall anyone here suggesting that it's a problem is Python upstream wants to ship Python binaries.  While I think that there are issues with some of the upstream design choices, I understand why upstream packaging exists.  Debian leverages it to deliver our system.

I do find the common view upstream of distributions shipping anything Python as a problem to be super annoying.  Not you, to be clear.  I think you are one of the few people that does see both sides of the problem.

Personally, I've given up on any upstream interactions.  I don't need pointless hostility.  While there are technical concerns on both sides, socially I think the Python community isn't that interested in outside perspectives.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

Scott K

On May 26, 2024 11:23:03 PM UTC, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
>I happen to be subscribed here, so figured I'd comment :)
>
>FWIW I think the way the discussions are going... really in both locations.. is needlessly taking shots at each other.
>
>I've commented on discuss.python.org, but figured I'd repeat myself here.
>
>I think the way these discussions devolve into each "side" taking shots at each other and arguing over nonsense that doesn't matter does everyone a disservice. 
>
>The facts of the matter, as far as I can tell:
>
>- Distributors ship Python and a number of people find great value in that and it works great or at least fine for them.
>- A number of users have needs or wants that are not well served by the Python that distributors ship, for one reason or another.
>
>People in either of those groups sniping at each other for wanting the "wrong" things is completely unproductive. 
>
>It's probably "fine" if Python.org wants to ship a linux binary, I suspect it'll have very little impact on distributors of Python (and might even make things better-- since some of the problems flow from an impedance mismatch, and it provides a different escape hatch to point people towards if the distro Python doesn't suit their needs).
>
>On 5/26/2024 9:39:25 AM, Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> wrote:
>Hi Ian (2024.05.26_01:33:09_+0000)
>> I am puzzled about some of the responses there, how can anyone expect to
>> randomly update packages on the system using pip and not have it go wrong
>> on any distribution? This is why things like pipenv exist.
>
>People don't understand that stuff until they dig to the details. And
>even then, sometimes they forget and/or assume we have the resources to
>massively revamp our stack.
>
>There are long-standing grievances here (see tiran's gist for example).
>I have very little experience with Fedora/RH, but from their grumbling,
>I assume they solve some problems for developers that we don't:
>
>1. It appears that multiple versions of cPython are trivially available.
>Each version has its own site-packages.
>2. Their python packaging is more developer-centric than user-centric.
>More modules included in the install.
>
>We're pretty constrained on 1 by the debian security team policy. But
>maybe there is discussion room there for non-supported Pythons?
>
>We have taken steps to improve 2 by adding the python3-full package.
>
>I could see a long term strategy for having a system-python package that
>provides a python3 binary used by Debian packages that need Python. And
>a separate python package for developers that installs all the bells and
>whistles immediately.
>
>Achieving this would require reorganizing the way we package almost all
>Python, and I don't think we have the interest and resources to do that.
>
>If pyenv was packaged in Debian (ITP #978149) it would probably be great
>for new Python developers on Debian.
>
>Not sure what other small tactical steps we could take?
>
>> > Perhaps someone else wants to comment on that conversation
>
>Replied. I've engaged with these guys on this stuff before. Let's see
>where it goes...
>
>Stefano
>
>--
>Stefano Rivera
>http://tumbleweed.org.za/
>+1 415 683 3272
>
>
>[163d8144-a584-4d1d-9d71-f86da864fde2]

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python devs complaining about debian packaging Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-26 01:50 +0200
  Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Ian Norton <inorton@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 03:40 +0200
    Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Paul Boddie <paul@boddie.org.uk> - 2024-05-26 14:10 +0200
      Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-26 15:30 +0200
        Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Danial Behzadi <dani.behzi@ubuntu.com> - 2024-05-26 15:30 +0200
    Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2024-05-26 15:40 +0200
      Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging "Donald Stufft" <donald@stufft.io> - 2024-05-27 01:30 +0200
        Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-05-27 04:10 +0200
          Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Paul Boddie <paul@boddie.org.uk> - 2024-06-03 00:20 +0200
            Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-06-03 07:40 +0200
              Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging "Donald Stufft" <donald@stufft.io> - 2024-06-03 16:30 +0200
                Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Paul Boddie <paul@boddie.org.uk> - 2024-06-03 18:00 +0200
                Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-06-03 21:10 +0200
  Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging weepingclown <weepingclown@disroot.org> - 2024-05-26 15:00 +0200

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