Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider]

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider]
Date	2020-09-01 11:17 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<877dtdn6mn.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <T4OdnaR8HaJWH9HCnZ2dnUU7-V3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877dtfq6zp.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <t_OdnbYUwdHtYdHCnZ2dnUU7-YfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bliqnxcd.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <TZGdnV-iP9fTT9DCnZ2dnUU7-d_NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 8/31/2020 7:40 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 8/31/2020 8:28 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> If we assume that Mike's analysis is correct then we can conclude that
>>>>> every x86 program that derives a result has an equivalent Turing
>>>>> machine computation on equivalent input deriving an equivalent result.
>>>>
>>>> That's the wrong way round.  You don't need anyone's analysis to know
>>>> that any function computable on an x86 is Turing computable.
>>>>
>>>>> If an x86 based halt decider derives a correct halting decision on the
>>>>> basis of its own x86 code
>>>>
>>>> Halting for x86 programs is known to be effectively decidable.  If you
>>>> want to work on the rather narrow sub-problem of whether there is an x86
>>>> program that can decide x86 halting, well, knock yourself out, but I
>>>> don't think anyone will care about the answer though.
>>>
>>> So go ahead and encode the Linz H_Hat in x86 and show how it would
>>> decide halting on itself, (and not be terminated by the OS).
>>
>> How many times?  Linz's H^ does not exist, because H does not exist.  No
>> one can encode it in any notation.
>>
>> But you were clear at the time that you were not claiming to have a halt
>> decider (i.e. Linz's H).  Instead, you claimed to have two Turing
>> machines (though we now know that that was a lie) related to each other
>> exactly as per the /construction/ given in Linz, but which don't exhibit
>> the usual contradiction in Linz.
>>
>> As has been pointed out countless times, it does not matter what
>> notation or model you use, provided it can represent the correct
>> relationship (the "H^" construction) between the two machines or
>> programs.  It's as impossible a claim regardless of the model, so of
>> course I can't do it, and neither can you.
>>
>>> Then show how this is different than it would be in a Turing
>>> equivalent language. I already figured out how my work would be
>>> encoded in a Turing equivalent language and the result would be the
>>> same.
>>
>> When I say that halting for x86 code is effectively decidable, it means
>> that a Turing machine (or something Turing equivalent) can decide
>> halting for x86 computations.  Stronger models can decide halting for
>> weaker ones.
>>
>> What you claimed (when you were telling porky pies about Turing
>> machines) is impossible in /any/ real or abstract model of computation.
>
> Thus negating what you just said.

It would seem so, wouldn't it?  So take your mind back to other
situations where your response has been to jump to the conclusion that I
am contradicting myself, saying crazy thing, lying or playing mind
games.  In those cases, finding out what you've misunderstood turned out
to be valuable.

>> It's impossible in x86 code, it's impossible in Lisp, Haskell, C, Post
>> systems, lambda calculus and, yes, Turing machines.  You really don't
>> need to fuss about Turing equivalence or any of that.  Just show the
>> impossible pair in any notation, Turing complete or not.
>>
>> And while you are ay it, stop underselling your claim.  Demonstrating a
>> logical impossibility would go much further than invalidating a few
>> proofs.  Fortunately, since it's impossible, you can't demonstrate it.
>> That's why there has been nothing but boasts from you.
>
> The key thing about all this is that my success at this would provide
> at least an infinitesimal amount of evidence that really I am who I
> am. Once I accomplish the "impossible" I would have very slightly
> proved that I am whom I claim to be.

Oh dear.

Every now and then reality intervenes and I remember I am talking to
someone who is not at all well.  I really should not enable your
delusions.

-- 
Ben.

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Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 13:55 -0500
  Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Kaz Kylheku <793-849-0957@kylheku.com> - 2020-08-30 19:19 +0000
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 14:40 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 14:57 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 15:02 -0500
      Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-30 22:05 +0100
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 17:01 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 15:59 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 16:19 -0500
      Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-31 02:30 +0100
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 21:35 -0500
          Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-31 03:53 +0100
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> - 2020-08-31 03:24 +0000
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-31 14:51 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> - 2020-08-31 14:06 +0000
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 10:08 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-31 21:12 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> - 2020-08-31 21:39 +0000
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 01:06 -0500
          Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 23:55 -0500
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-31 14:28 +0100
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 08:34 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-01 01:40 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 23:47 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-01 11:17 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 08:30 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-01 15:48 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 10:33 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-02 02:10 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 20:38 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-02 03:32 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 21:51 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-02 04:15 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 22:43 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-01 22:48 -0600
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 00:17 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-01 23:34 -0600
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 00:42 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-03 05:57 -0600
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 09:21 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-03 12:05 -0600
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 16:39 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 00:29 -0500
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86 based halt decider] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 14:01 -0500
          Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2020-08-31 10:05 +0100
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 08:49 -0500
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2020-08-31 17:37 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-08-31 11:20 -0600
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2020-08-31 19:01 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 13:11 -0500
                Floating point [was Re: Transforming "C" ...] Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2020-09-01 11:55 +0100
                Re: Floating point [was Re: Transforming "C" ...] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-01 15:35 +0100
                Re: Floating point Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2020-09-01 20:16 +0100
                Re: Floating point Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-02 01:17 +0100
                Re: Floating point Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2020-09-02 01:44 +0100
                Re: Floating point Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-02 02:20 +0100
                Re: Floating point Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2020-09-02 12:14 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 002 [Translating C to a unary TM] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 13:10 -0500
                Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 002 [Translating C to a unary TM] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 13:00 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 004 [x86 language mapped to unlimited integers] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 11:44 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 20:35 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 09:59 -0500
      Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-31 19:33 +0100
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 13:51 -0500
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-08-31 15:33 -0600
          Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 16:43 -0500
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-08-31 19:09 -0600
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 20:18 -0500
          Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-08-31 23:51 +0100
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 18:25 -0500
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-08-31 19:13 -0600
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 20:17 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-08-31 22:51 -0600
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 00:18 -0500
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-09-01 00:02 -0600
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 14:28 -0500
      Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-08-31 22:51 +0100
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 17:49 -0500
          Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-01 02:42 +0100
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 23:30 -0500
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-01 15:30 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 09:51 -0500
            Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 23:32 -0500
              Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-01 16:15 +0100
                Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 10:53 -0500
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [x86_UTM trace] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 23:24 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 15:05 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 002 [HP proof refutation] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 17:00 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 17:46 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 18:58 -0500
      Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-02 02:37 +0100
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-01 20:40 -0500
          Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-02 03:24 +0100
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 005 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 11:20 -0500
      Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 005 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Kaz Kylheku <793-849-0957@kylheku.com> - 2020-09-02 17:22 +0000
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 005 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 12:27 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 006 [credit to Kaz where credit is due] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 11:48 -0500
  Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-08-31 11:18 -0700
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-31 21:34 +0000
      Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2020-09-01 09:13 +0000
        Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] boltar@nuttyella.co.uk - 2020-09-01 09:24 +0000

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