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Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos

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In article <badcca16-ee32-499e-b50e-0d1e5f1d7436@j4g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
	Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> writes:
> On Dec 13, 8:57 pm, d...@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:
>>  > Folks, does this look like the Holy Grail of which we speak? I got
>>  > this from a member of my Control Data group; it appears to be the
>>  > portable distribution, un-ported.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure GATech made some enhancements to integrate the
>> basic STOS with PRIMOS.  Here's the User Guide for the GATech
>> version:
>>
>> http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/prime_manuals/GIT-ICS-85-08_Software_Tools_...
>>
>> De
> I confess...
> I'm a computer programmer at heart. Jim's sig line (or the one he
> used to use) expresses my feelings very succinctly:
> Software First! (Software Lasts!)
> Pick the software you want. Then find the hardware that best runs it.
> If the hardware doesn't exist, design it and build it.

With the single exception of The UCSD-Pascal Microengine, name one case
where this was what happened.  Hardware invariably come first.  Probably
because it's a lot easier to customize software to fit on the hardware
than the other way around.

> So I totally fail to comprehend the value of STVOS/Prime, in a way
> that I don't fail to comprehend Primix: Primix was a product, it
> was meant to make money.

Having worked with PRIMIX a lot from the very beginning (My printed manuals
are xeroxs of Primes development pages!) I can tell you it was a totally
worthless product.  The primary reason for things like PRIMIX and EUNICE
were to open up the world of Unix freeware (yes, we had freeware long before
the Stallman rant) to other OSes.  It was all about a common API accross
multiple platforms.  Long after STVOS was abandoned and lost all the work
was re-done in the form of POSIX.

> STVOS/Prime, I don't get, because the Prime computer architecture was
> designed to run PRIMOS. I'm not saying PRIMOS was perfect; its Multics
> inheritance was perhaps one of its flaws.
> Most notably, Joe Osanna's I/O redirection paradigm. Joe was a
> Multician, but he created the pipes for Unix, not Multics. The
> Multics mechanisms for I/O redirection, like those on the Prime,
> as rather clumsy.
> That paradigm does not require fork() to be useful; fork() does
> enhance it. But Multics and PRIMOS alike would have benefited
> from that ONE SINGLE innovation.
> OTHERWISE... they were each excellent operating systems, and I
> don't get why someone would want to dump a layer of something
> else on top of it.

See above.  it was all about a common API and with the advent of POSIX
it became even more important, especially if you wanted to sell products
to the government.

> Now, I totally get wanting to find STVOS/Prime from the standpoint
> of software archaeology, of wanting to preserve each and every bit
> that ever ran on those machines.
> But golly gosh, if you want a Unix-like operating system, there
> are *dozens* of choices out there.

Except that STVOS was never really an OS.  It's an API.  Of course, there
was a real, native Unix for Primes but after backing all the work in the
end Prime refused to let the developers release it apparently to protect
the market for their extremely inferior PRIMIX product.

> OTOH, if you want a Multics-like operating system, there are like,
> three choices (Multics, PRIMOS, and NOS/VE). Maybe one or two
> others.
> Ok, I'll stop ranting. Sorry. But one of my long-time favorite
> internet ranters is lying on his deathbed, and its got me into
> a mess.

Nothing wrong with a rant.  Especially if it brings out the explanation
for why something was actually done.  Reading Debbie Scherrer's original
paper would go a long way towards understanding the goals of the project.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

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Thread

Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Edward Feustel <efeustel@hughes.net> - 2012-11-30 09:47 -0500
  Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2012-11-30 09:28 -0800
    Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-11-30 22:11 -0800
      Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-02 10:54 -0800
        Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-13 15:01 -0800
          Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-13 15:03 -0800
          Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2012-12-13 23:14 +0000
            Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-13 17:19 -0800
          Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2012-12-13 16:11 -0800
          Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2012-12-13 19:57 -0600
            Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-13 20:55 -0800
              Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2012-12-14 13:07 +0000
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-14 08:02 -0800
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2012-12-14 17:11 +0000
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-14 17:41 -0800
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2012-12-15 02:24 +0000
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2012-12-15 10:58 -0600
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2012-12-15 10:51 -0600
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos matt weber <mattheww50@verizon.net> - 2012-12-16 14:28 -0500
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Andreas Eder <andreas_eder@gmx.net> - 2012-12-14 17:08 +0100
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2012-12-14 17:20 +0000
            Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2012-12-14 12:52 +0000
    Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2019-09-24 14:46 -0700
      Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2019-09-25 04:10 -0500
        Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2019-09-25 08:43 -0400
          Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2019-09-25 05:54 -0700
          Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Bernard Giroud <bgiroud3@free.fr> - 2019-09-26 10:08 +0200
            Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2021-09-10 20:44 -0700
          Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2021-09-04 11:25 -0700
            Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2021-09-10 13:48 -0400
              Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2021-09-10 20:39 -0700
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2021-09-11 18:16 -0400
                Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2021-10-05 20:54 -0700
  Re: Georgia Tech Software Tools for Primos Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> - 2012-12-13 17:22 -0800

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