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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #83910 > unrolled thread

App]le Maps

Started byJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
First post2015-10-22 04:01 -0400
Last post2015-10-22 13:08 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 89 — 16 participants

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Contents

  App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-22 04:01 -0400
    Re: App]le Maps jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2015-10-22 21:04 +1300
    Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-22 08:48 -0400
      Re: App]le Maps Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 10:10 -0400
        Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-22 16:46 -0400
      Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-22 18:19 +0000
        Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-22 18:05 -0400
          Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-22 18:50 -0400
            Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-22 19:00 -0400
          Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-23 06:51 +0000
            Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-23 14:15 +0000
            Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-23 14:31 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-23 22:41 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-24 10:27 -0400
      Re: App]le Maps Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2015-10-22 19:39 -0400
        Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-22 23:54 +0000
        Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-23 14:39 -0400
          Re: App]le Maps nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-23 14:47 -0400
            Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-23 18:52 +0000
              Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-24 10:18 -0400
                Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-24 14:59 +0000
                  Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 09:17 -0400
                    Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-26 06:22 +0000
                      Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-26 17:04 -0400
                        Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-26 21:17 +0000
                          Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-26 19:22 -0400
            Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-23 17:56 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-23 18:05 -0400
                Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-24 10:24 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-24 16:21 +0000
                    Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-24 18:23 +0000
                      Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-24 19:21 +0000
                    Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 09:18 -0400
                      Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-25 16:51 +0000
                  Re: App]le Maps nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-24 17:37 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-23 22:14 +0000
              Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-23 22:45 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-23 19:50 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-23 20:21 -0400
                    Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-24 01:41 +0000
                    Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-24 10:42 -0400
                      Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-24 16:26 +0000
                        Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 09:19 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-24 03:06 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-24 10:32 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2015-10-23 21:32 -0400
            Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-24 10:17 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-24 14:57 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-24 13:46 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-24 18:12 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-24 13:45 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-10-24 17:57 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 09:14 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-24 16:21 +0000
              Re: App]le Maps nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-24 17:37 -0400
                Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-24 20:55 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-24 21:05 -0400
                    Re: App]le Maps dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-10-25 16:57 +1300
                      Re: App]le Maps dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2015-10-25 16:48 +1100
                        Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 09:25 -0400
                      Re: App]le Maps Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2015-10-25 15:00 -0400
                      Re: App]le Maps Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-26 06:19 +0000
                        Re: App]le Maps Király <ggrandish@gmail.com> - 2015-10-26 16:39 -0700
          Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-23 18:50 +0000
            Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-24 10:18 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps Ed Anson <EdAnson@comcast.net> - 2015-10-24 12:09 -0400
                Re: App]le Maps Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2015-10-24 13:27 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net> - 2015-10-24 10:40 -0700
                  Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-24 19:20 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 09:21 -0400
              Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-24 16:21 +0000
                Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 09:23 -0400
                  Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-25 16:51 +0000
                    Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-25 18:24 -0400
                      Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-25 22:55 +0000
                        Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-26 17:03 -0400
                          Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-26 21:59 +0000
                            Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-26 18:12 -0400
                              Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-26 22:20 +0000
                                Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-26 18:27 -0400
                                  Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-26 22:38 +0000
                                    Re: App]le Maps Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-26 18:53 -0400
                                      Re: App]le Maps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-27 01:26 +0000
                                        Re: App]le Maps Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-27 08:53 -0700
                                    Re: App]le Maps Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-26 16:51 -0700
          Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-23 17:55 -0400
    Re: App]le Maps me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2015-10-22 13:12 +0000
      Re: App]le Maps nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-22 11:28 -0400
      Re: App]le Maps JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-22 13:08 -0400

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#84096

FromAlan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date2015-10-24 10:42 -0400
Message-ID<QaKdnQj9vJZQBbbLnZ2dnUU7-LednZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#84069
On 2015-10-23 20:21, nospam wrote:
> In article <562ac7b1$0$5903$b1db1813$19ace300@news.astraweb.com>, JF
> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>> We know for a FACT (you may need to look that word up) that Google did
>>> not allow turn-by-turn directions in iOS.
>>
>> We only know for a FACT that the existing Google Maps application did
>> not provide turn by turn.
>
> we also know for a fact that google prohibited turn by turn for anyone
> using google maps.
>
>> We know for a FACT that instead of striking a deal with Google to make
>> it happen, Apple decided to build its own app and mapping database.
>>
>> We have no factual information on what really happened during
>> negotiations between Apple and Google about maps.
>
> true, but it's not hard to figure out what happened.
>
>>> Most iOS users use Apple Maps.
>>
>> On what basis do you proclaim that ?
>
> because it's already installed and the default app for map urls.
>
> for a user to use google maps, they need to download a separate app and
> then explicitly run it. some do, but most do not.
>
>> I can just as easily state that most IOS users have moved the Apple Maps
>> app to the "useless" folder on the very last page where most Apple users
>> put those apps we're not allowed to delete.
>
> except that's not based in reality.
>
> <http://fortune.com/2015/06/16/apple-google-maps-ios/>
>    At WWDC last week Apple announced that it receives 5 billion requests
>    per week for its mapping services and that Apple Maps is used 3.5
>    times more frequently than ³the next leading maps app²‹i.e. Google
>    Maps.

Apple stated.  Right.  How do they know how often Google gets the Map 
data request?

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#84115

FromJolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date2015-10-24 16:26 +0000
Message-ID<d91poqF3phuU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#84096
Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2015-10-23 20:21, nospam wrote:
>> 
>> except that's not based in reality.
>> 
>> <http://fortune.com/2015/06/16/apple-google-maps-ios/>
>> At WWDC last week Apple announced that it receives 5 billion requests
>> per week for its mapping services and that Apple Maps is used 3.5
>> times more frequently than ³the next leading maps app²‹i.e. Google
>> Maps.
> 
> Apple stated.  Right.  

You're suggesting Apple lied?

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR 

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#84155

FromAlan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date2015-10-25 09:19 -0400
Message-ID<i7adnRC95YRiS7HLnZ2dnUU7-dmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#84115
On 2015-10-24 12:26, Jolly Roger wrote:
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2015-10-23 20:21, nospam wrote:
>>>
>>> except that's not based in reality.
>>>
>>> <http://fortune.com/2015/06/16/apple-google-maps-ios/>
>>> At WWDC last week Apple announced that it receives 5 billion requests
>>> per week for its mapping services and that Apple Maps is used 3.5
>>> times more frequently than ³the next leading maps app²‹i.e. Google
>>> Maps.
>>
>> Apple stated.  Right.
>
> You're suggesting Apple lied?

I'm suggesting that all the data isn't present.

How do Apple determine if someone is using Google Maps data?


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#84080

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2015-10-24 03:06 +0000
Message-ID<slrnn2lthc.d11.g.kreme@amelia.local>
In reply to#84068
In message <562ac7b1$0$5903$b1db1813$19ace300@news.astraweb.com> 
  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2015-10-23 18:45, Lewis wrote:

>> We know for a FACT (you may need to look that word up) that Google did
>> not allow turn-by-turn directions in iOS.

> We only know for a FACT that the existing Google Maps application did
> not provide turn by turn.

No, you are wrong. We know for a FACT that Google did not allow
turn-by-turn directions in iOS.

>> Most iOS users use Apple Maps.

> On what basis do you proclaim that ?

<http://fortune.com/2015/06/16/apple-google-maps-ios/>
<http://www.macrumors.com/2013/11/11/apple-maps-significantly-more-popular-than-all-other-ios-mapping-apps-including-google/>
<http://techland.time.com/2013/11/12/failing-up-apple-maps-takes-a-bite-out-of-google/>

> I can just as easily state that most IOS users have moved the Apple Maps
> app to the "useless" folder on the very last page where most Apple users
> put those apps we're not allowed to delete.

YOU can state that since you are unconstrained by reality or facts.

-- 
Where there is a party, everyone is there
Everyone will leave at exactly the same time
When this party is over it will start again
But not been any different be exactly the same

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#84095

FromAlan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date2015-10-24 10:32 -0400
Message-ID<7cmdncyq2f_7C7bLnZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#84064
On 2015-10-23 18:45, Lewis wrote:
> In message <562aad24$0$62773$c3e8da3$dbd57e7@news.astraweb.com>
>    JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> On 2015-10-23 14:47, nospam wrote:
>
>>> google refused to allow turn by turn directions, so apple had no choice
>>> but do their own maps.
>
>> This was during Steve Jobs era. Nobody really knows what really went on.
>
> We know for a FACT (you may need to look that word up) that Google did
> not allow turn-by-turn directions in iOS.
>
> We know for a FACT (you may need to look that word up) that Apple had
> turn-by-turn directions from the beginning with their mapping app.
>
> We know for a FACT (you may need to look that word up) that Google added
> turn-by=turn directions to their app quite a while after Apple dumped
> Google maps.

What happened was one co. wouldn't trade features against the other co. 
  Both companies were not in "good faith" negotiating mode.

eg: Google wanted branding and the Latitude feature.  Apple wanted 
turn-by-turn.  Apple refused the former.  Google refused the later. 
What order?  Doesn't matter.  They just wouldn't trade.


>
>> Guess what ? It still does because that is what people use because Apple
>> Maps, while cute, is not reliable as a mapping product.
>
> Most iOS users use Apple Maps.

Source?

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#84074

FromDavoud <star@sky.net>
Date2015-10-23 21:32 -0400
Message-ID<231020152132028746%star@sky.net>
In reply to#84047
nospam:
> > plus, google was collecting vast amounts of customer data about how and
> > where iphones and ipads were being used.

F Mezei:
> Guess what ? It still does because that is what people use because Apple
> Maps, while cute, is not reliable as a mapping product.

I didn't know anyone cared about tracking anymore. Christ, the Chinese
have my personnel records, Apple tracks me, Google tracks me, AT&T and
Verizon Wireless track me, Maryland and Pennsylvania both track me (EZ
Passes from both states), my credit card issuers know everything I buy,
the supermarket knows what my family eats, Flickr tracks me through
metadata, ditto the Encyclopedia of Life and the Maryland Biodiversity
Project (photos are useless without precise location data), and on and
on.

I started to make a text list of everyone who tracks me, but it filled
my two 12TB RAID drives, so I deleted it.

As for Apple Maps, don't know anything about it. I don't use the
service except when some Apple-branded iOS app causes it to open.
Google Maps has proved to be sufficiently accurate and convenient for
my simple needs.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

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#84089

FromAlan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date2015-10-24 10:17 -0400
Message-ID<fqydnfG5q4pCD7bLnZ2dnUU7-QudnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#84032
On 2015-10-23 14:47, nospam wrote:
> In article <jMOdnQ1ONvR_47fLnZ2dnUU7-dOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> E for effort. Apple should have left mapping to Google. Maybe spent the
>>> time and money to give us a Lightroom competitor instead of the also
>>> defective Photos.app.
>>
>> They did.  Aperture.  Oh.  Right.
>>
>> Apple getting into Maps is clearly a strategic issue tying together
>> people's daily planning through Apple wares.  They could have used
>> Google as a partner (as they had in the earlier iOS days) but in a tiff
>> they went on their own fiasco path.  It's finally smoothed out, but
>> still a fraction of what Google was 5 years ago.  Big waste, IMO.  The
>> only really useful thing in Apple Maps is the ability to send a route to
>> one's iPhone.
>
> google refused to allow turn by turn directions, so apple had no choice
> but do their own maps.

Google didn't "refuse".  Apple didn't want Google's terms which included 
branding, integration of Google's Latitude service, and so on.  Apple 
wanted it to be a pure Apple experience.  Well, they found that to be 
more difficult to deliver than expected.  They haven't caught up.

Couple all that to the growing animosity due to Android and Apple 
collecting map and nav related companies and Apple cornered themselves 
quite neatly.

> plus, google was collecting vast amounts of customer data about how and
> where iphones and ipads were being used.

Another thing that could be negotiated out.  Here were two companies too 
bound to what they wanted and not giving on key points.  To date Apple 
has lost in the whole thing.

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#84097

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2015-10-24 14:57 +0000
Message-ID<slrnn2n76g.im8.g.kreme@amelia.local>
In reply to#84089
In message <fqydnfG5q4pCD7bLnZ2dnUU7-QudnZ2d@giganews.com> 
  Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> Another thing that could be negotiated out.  Here were two companies too 
> bound to what they wanted and not giving on key points.  To date Apple 
> has lost in the whole thing.

Apple has far more users of Apple Maps on iOS that Google has of Google
Maps. How you can characterize that as a LOSS for Apple is peculiar.
Have you been studying at the JF School of "Facts"?

-- 
"You can think and you can fight, but the world's always movin', and if
you wanna stay ahead you gotta dance."

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#84119

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2015-10-24 13:46 -0400
Message-ID<562bc40f$0$65346$c3e8da3$e074e489@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#84097
On 2015-10-24 10:57, Lewis wrote:

> Apple has far more users of Apple Maps on iOS that Google has of Google
> Maps. 


Those "hits" also include any display of map data , for instance when
you take a photo and iPhoto shows where it was taken. It doesn't mean
the user is actually using Apple Maps.

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#84128

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2015-10-24 18:12 +0000
Message-ID<slrnn2nilb.jqs.g.kreme@amelia.local>
In reply to#84119
In message <562bc40f$0$65346$c3e8da3$e074e489@news.astraweb.com> 
  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2015-10-24 10:57, Lewis wrote:

>> Apple has far more users of Apple Maps on iOS that Google has of Google
>> Maps. 


> Those "hits" also include any display of map data , for instance when
> you take a photo and iPhoto shows where it was taken. It doesn't mean
> the user is actually using Apple Maps.

Hits are one metric. Users are another. Both numbers are much higher for
Apple.


-- 
"He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder

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#84120

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2015-10-24 13:45 -0400
Message-ID<562bc3d1$0$65346$c3e8da3$e074e489@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#84097
On 2015-10-24 10:57, Lewis wrote:

> Apple has far more users of Apple Maps on iOS that Google has of Google
> Maps. How you can characterize that as a LOSS for Apple is peculiar.
> Have you been studying at the JF School of "Facts"?


Maybe they measured only in Cuppertino.

Consider that vastly more than half of iPhones are outside the USA where
Apple's Maps is outdated and inaccurate. To claim that vast majority of
all iPhone users use Apple Maps more than Google is rather strange.

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#84122

FromHuge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid>
Date2015-10-24 17:57 +0000
Message-ID<d91v52F4qicU6@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#84120
On 2015-10-24, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2015-10-24 10:57, Lewis wrote:
>
>> Apple has far more users of Apple Maps on iOS that Google has of Google
>> Maps. How you can characterize that as a LOSS for Apple is peculiar.
>> Have you been studying at the JF School of "Facts"?
>
>
> Maybe they measured only in Cuppertino.
>
> Consider that vastly more than half of iPhones are outside the USA where
> Apple's Maps is outdated and inaccurate. To claim that vast majority of
> all iPhone users use Apple Maps more than Google is rather strange.

Apple fanbois will not have it that Apple is anything other than perfect. It's
rather wearisome.


-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 5th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3181
Celebrate Maladay
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#84152

FromAlan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date2015-10-25 09:14 -0400
Message-ID<i7adnRe95YQhSLHLnZ2dnUU7-dmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#84097
On 2015-10-24 10:57, Lewis wrote:
> In message <fqydnfG5q4pCD7bLnZ2dnUU7-QudnZ2d@giganews.com>
>    Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>> Another thing that could be negotiated out.  Here were two companies too
>> bound to what they wanted and not giving on key points.  To date Apple
>> has lost in the whole thing.
>
> Apple has far more users of Apple Maps on iOS that Google has of Google
> Maps. How you can characterize that as a LOSS for Apple is peculiar.

They negotiated to a lose-lose.

But Google retain Android as well as a slice of iOS.

It's not a surprise that most people using iOS are using Apple Maps as 
it's the default Map app in there.  OTOH, nobody on Android will be 
using Apple Maps at all.

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#84111

FromJolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date2015-10-24 16:21 +0000
Message-ID<d91pfeF3n90U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#84089
Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
>> plus, google was collecting vast amounts of customer data about how and
>> where iphones and ipads were being used.
> 
> Another thing that could be negotiated out.  Here were two companies too 
> bound to what they wanted and not giving on key points.  To date Apple 
> has lost in the whole thing.

I don't consider it a loss. I find Apple Maps useful since the areas I
frequent are well covered, and I appreciate not sending that traffic to
Google. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR 

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#84137

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2015-10-24 17:37 -0400
Message-ID<241020151737118465%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#84089
In article <fqydnfG5q4pCD7bLnZ2dnUU7-QudnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

> >>> E for effort. Apple should have left mapping to Google. Maybe spent the
> >>> time and money to give us a Lightroom competitor instead of the also
> >>> defective Photos.app.
> >>
> >> They did.  Aperture.  Oh.  Right.
> >>
> >> Apple getting into Maps is clearly a strategic issue tying together
> >> people's daily planning through Apple wares.  They could have used
> >> Google as a partner (as they had in the earlier iOS days) but in a tiff
> >> they went on their own fiasco path.  It's finally smoothed out, but
> >> still a fraction of what Google was 5 years ago.  Big waste, IMO.  The
> >> only really useful thing in Apple Maps is the ability to send a route to
> >> one's iPhone.
> >
> > google refused to allow turn by turn directions, so apple had no choice
> > but do their own maps.
> 
> Google didn't "refuse". 

yes they did. google's licensing terms specifically prohibited turn by
turn directions. that's clearly a refusal.

apple has enough clout to negotiate their own terms, but google was the
only game in town so they could say take it or leave it.

by not allowing turn by turn on ios (which android had at the time),
they could keep apple at a disadvantage.

apple had no choice but to do their own.

> Apple didn't want Google's terms which included 
> branding, integration of Google's Latitude service, and so on.  Apple 
> wanted it to be a pure Apple experience. 

that's another part of it, but not the only part.

google was getting a lot of user information based on location data and
map searches. apple would rather they did not get that. 

> Well, they found that to be 
> more difficult to deliver than expected.  They haven't caught up.

that part is true. 

it's getting better but it will always trail behind google, which has a
*huge* lead.

> Couple all that to the growing animosity due to Android and Apple 
> collecting map and nav related companies and Apple cornered themselves 
> quite neatly.

apple didn't corner themselves. they were cornered by google and sought
to get out of that corner. however, the road out was not as smooth as
they would have preferred.

> > plus, google was collecting vast amounts of customer data about how and
> > where iphones and ipads were being used.
> 
> Another thing that could be negotiated out.  Here were two companies too 
> bound to what they wanted and not giving on key points.  To date Apple 
> has lost in the whole thing.

you don't know how much google would bend on that. google's revenue is
based on collecting data. giving that up is a direct financial hit and
they're not going to let that go very easily.

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#84144

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2015-10-24 20:55 -0400
Message-ID<562c287b$0$27700$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#84137
On 2015-10-24 17:37, nospam wrote:

> yes they did. google's licensing terms specifically prohibited turn by
> turn directions. that's clearly a refusal.

the existing contract did not provide for turn by turn. This does not
mean that Google refused to offer a new contract that did.



> apple has enough clout to negotiate their own terms, 

No they don't, not against a bigger/equal giant: Google.


> it's getting better but it will always trail behind google, which has a
> *huge* lead.

Not quite. If Apple had proper means for cities and individuals to
report problems/changes, then Apple Maps would get updated at roughly
the same speed as Google when new roads are opened or existing roads
changed/closed.

Apple having no web interface that is publicly available, it means that
minicipalities and govts who are on Windows can't signal such changes to
Apple, but they can to Google.

Apple needs to ramp up its web presence to enable this. When you go to
icloud to "find my iPhone", you'll find Apple already has a web
interface for its Maps. It just needs to make it officially available on
the web.


> apple didn't corner themselves. they were cornered by google and sought
> to get out of that corner. however, the road out was not as smooth as
> they would have preferred.

they focused on totally useless 3D view instead of on core data accuracy
and completeness. But launching Maps without anything impressive would
have generated "boring" reviews.

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#84145

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2015-10-24 21:05 -0400
Message-ID<241020152105439146%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#84144
In article <562c287b$0$27700$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > yes they did. google's licensing terms specifically prohibited turn by
> > turn directions. that's clearly a refusal.
> 
> the existing contract did not provide for turn by turn. This does not
> mean that Google refused to offer a new contract that did.

google's terms of use specifically stated no turn by turn for *anyone*.

> > apple has enough clout to negotiate their own terms, 
> 
> No they don't, not against a bigger/equal giant: Google.

the hell they don't.

google makes a *lot* of money from ios devices. 

> > it's getting better but it will always trail behind google, which has a
> > *huge* lead.
> 
> Not quite. If Apple had proper means for cities and individuals to
> report problems/changes, then Apple Maps would get updated at roughly
> the same speed as Google when new roads are opened or existing roads
> changed/closed.

there's a way to report errors. the problem is that not much happens.

> Apple having no web interface that is publicly available, it means that
> minicipalities and govts who are on Windows can't signal such changes to
> Apple, but they can to Google.

do it on the device.

> Apple needs to ramp up its web presence to enable this. When you go to
> icloud to "find my iPhone", you'll find Apple already has a web
> interface for its Maps. It just needs to make it officially available on
> the web.

being able to report errors in a browser is not the problem.

the problem is that apple needs to actually verify the errors and fixes
and then update the map data.

google does that fairly fast. apple does that fairly slow or not at all.

> > apple didn't corner themselves. they were cornered by google and sought
> > to get out of that corner. however, the road out was not as smooth as
> > they would have preferred.
> 
> they focused on totally useless 3D view instead of on core data accuracy
> and completeness. But launching Maps without anything impressive would
> have generated "boring" reviews.

it's a lot easier to fly a plane and get 3d view than drive every
street for street view.

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#84148

Fromdempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson)
Date2015-10-25 16:57 +1300
Message-ID<1mcuxlh.11a16ho26966nN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>
In reply to#84145
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <562c287b$0$27700$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>, JF
> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Apple needs to ramp up its web presence to enable this. When you go to
> > icloud to "find my iPhone", you'll find Apple already has a web
> > interface for its Maps. It just needs to make it officially available on
> > the web.
> 
> being able to report errors in a browser is not the problem.
> 
> the problem is that apple needs to actually verify the errors and fixes
> and then update the map data.
> 
> google does that fairly fast. apple does that fairly slow or not at all.

I reported an error in Apple Maps a few weeks ago and it was fixed
within a week. (A hotel in Masterton, New Zealand was shown as being in
the completely wrong part of town.)

I haven't noticed any other map errors recently.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#84149

Fromdorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com>
Date2015-10-25 16:48 +1100
Message-ID<do_ray_me-12AB53.16481625102015@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com>
In reply to#84148
In article <1mcuxlh.11a16ho26966nN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>,
 dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote:

> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > In article <562c287b$0$27700$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>, JF
> > Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > 
> > > Apple needs to ramp up its web presence to enable this. When you go to
> > > icloud to "find my iPhone", you'll find Apple already has a web
> > > interface for its Maps. It just needs to make it officially available on
> > > the web.
> > 
> > being able to report errors in a browser is not the problem.
> > 
> > the problem is that apple needs to actually verify the errors and fixes
> > and then update the map data.
> > 
> > google does that fairly fast. apple does that fairly slow or not at all.
> 
> I reported an error in Apple Maps a few weeks ago and it was fixed
> within a week. (A hotel in Masterton, New Zealand was shown as being in
> the completely wrong part of town.)
> 
> I haven't noticed any other map errors recently.

In contrast, I have emailed, filled in forms and even talked on the 
phone to Google to get a grave error fixed on their Maps regarding a 
client of mine and it is a very difficult process. I think success has 
been achieved but it took months!

-- 
dorayme

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#84158

FromAlan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date2015-10-25 09:25 -0400
Message-ID<i7adnQ295YTMRbHLnZ2dnUU7-dmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#84149
On 2015-10-25 01:48, dorayme wrote:
> In article <1mcuxlh.11a16ho26966nN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>,
>   dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote:
>
>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <562c287b$0$27700$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>, JF
>>> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apple needs to ramp up its web presence to enable this. When you go to
>>>> icloud to "find my iPhone", you'll find Apple already has a web
>>>> interface for its Maps. It just needs to make it officially available on
>>>> the web.
>>>
>>> being able to report errors in a browser is not the problem.
>>>
>>> the problem is that apple needs to actually verify the errors and fixes
>>> and then update the map data.
>>>
>>> google does that fairly fast. apple does that fairly slow or not at all.
>>
>> I reported an error in Apple Maps a few weeks ago and it was fixed
>> within a week. (A hotel in Masterton, New Zealand was shown as being in
>> the completely wrong part of town.)
>>
>> I haven't noticed any other map errors recently.
>
> In contrast, I have emailed, filled in forms and even talked on the
> phone to Google to get a grave error fixed on their Maps regarding a
> client of mine and it is a very difficult process. I think success has
> been achieved but it took months!

I just correct them in Google Map Maker and they're accepted within 
hours to days.

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