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MacDraw for MacOS 10.10

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  MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-16 08:34 +0200
    Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Bernd Froehlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> - 2021-09-16 06:53 +0000
      Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-16 09:02 +0200
        Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Bernd Froehlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> - 2021-09-16 07:22 +0000
          Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-16 09:41 +0200
        Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 bob prohaska <bp@www.zefox.net> - 2021-09-17 01:47 +0000
          Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-17 10:22 +0200
            Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 bob prohaska <bp@www.zefox.net> - 2021-09-17 16:19 +0000
              Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-17 18:33 +0200
        Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2021-09-17 22:02 +0000
          Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-18 09:15 +0200
            Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2021-09-18 22:35 +0000
              Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-19 13:09 +0200
                Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2021-09-21 05:10 +0000
                  Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-21 08:46 +0200
                    Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2021-09-21 13:54 +0000
                      Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-21 18:35 +0200
                        Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2021-09-21 22:05 +0000
                          Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-22 07:15 +0200
                            Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2021-09-22 12:10 +0000
                    Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2021-09-25 23:56 +0000
                      Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-26 15:11 +0200
                        Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2021-09-27 16:28 +0000
                          Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-27 19:20 +0200
                            Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2021-10-01 15:49 +0000
                    Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2021-09-27 18:40 +0000
                      Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2021-09-28 08:53 +0200
                        Re: MacDraw for MacOS 10.10 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2021-09-28 14:56 +0000

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#462

For your reference, records indicate that 
Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> I want to draw a square.

That’s not very specific.  Still, it’s not very hard.  In SVG it’d be 
something like:

<rect x="10%" y="10%" width="80%" height="80%" fill="black" />

Adjust the units/values to whatever pixel-perfect outcome you have in mind.

> I want to draw a circle, crossing the sqare.

I’m not sure what “crossing” is supposed to mean, but:

<circle cx="50%" cy="50%" r="25%" fill="blue" />


> I want to draw some lines, cutting the circle.

<line x1="25%" y1="25%" x2="75%" y2="75%" stroke="white" stroke-width="4" />


> I want to cut the circle into pieces where I have crossings. I want to
> move or delete those pieces.

This is beyond the ability of MacDraw, to the best of my recollection of 
that app.  What perhaps you mean instead is that you wanted to draw some 
pie pieces that could fit together to make a circle.  Easily done with 
<path> elements, but you still have to supply the specific numbers you’re 
looking to draw.

<https://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/paths.html#PathDataEllipticalArcCommands>

As I said, if you *really* want to do this, there are already web frameworks 
out there that do most of it for you without having to do anything more than 
supply the numbers.

> I want to fill areas with colors or patterns.
> 
> I want to adjust line width and colors
> 
> I want to save this as jpg, gif, png or pdf

Nothing is stopping you from doing those things.

> I want to paste images from png files.

So something like:

<image width="192" height="192" x="17" y="6" xlink:href="your_file.png”/>

> If I'd want to convert data to graphics automatically, I'd propably use
> something like gnuplot.

Then I’m not sure why you don’t do that, or use any number of readily
available tools.

> But the data I got is e.g. a pie chart with 18%, 20%, 45 %. I'd convert
> this to degrees, draw a line, duplicate and rotate that line by the
> proper degree, from the center of a circle. Then I'd cut the circle to
> pizza segments. 

Why?  All that manual busy work in a GUI app just doesn’t make much sense.  
I’d much rather find a way to give the computer the numbers and let *it* do 
that tedious stuff. 

> It's really nothing fancy - put cut
> and split is not that easy in the tools I've checked by now.

Looked pretty easy on the Google framework I gave you the link for.

> Inkscape was ok, more or less. But Inkscape 1.1 does not run on MacOS
> 10.10. 1.02 requires 10.11. 0.9.2 is not an actual MacOS version, but
> X11. Usable, but ugly.

Such is the nature of many open source ports to the Mac.  I myself have a 
bit of a love/hate relationship with Audacity for that reason.  These days, 
my approach is use those apps on their native platform, either by running 
a virtual machine on my Mac, or by installing them on a $100 Raspberry Pi.  
If you’re expecting someone to write a Mac-specific app to do those 
things, you have to make a better case than you’ve done here.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

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#463

On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 23:56:34 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> I want to cut the circle into pieces where I have crossings. I want to
>> move or delete those pieces.
>
> This is beyond the ability of MacDraw, to the best of my recollection of 
> that app.  What perhaps you mean instead is that you wanted to draw some 
> pie pieces that could fit together to make a circle.  Easily done with 
> <path> elements, but you still have to supply the specific numbers you’re 
> looking to draw.

You are right that MacDraw did not support to cut crossings. But it
supported very well to draw circle arcs as part of a cicle.

>> I want to fill areas with colors or patterns.
>> 
>> I want to adjust line width and colors
>> 
>> I want to save this as jpg, gif, png or pdf
>
> Nothing is stopping you from doing those things.

Those web apps stop me as long as they do not support those operations.

> <image width="192" height="192" x="17" y="6" xlink:href="your_file.png”/>
>
>> If I'd want to convert data to graphics automatically, I'd propably use
>> something like gnuplot.
>
> Then I’m not sure why you don’t do that, or use any number of readily
> available tools.

Because I do use gnuplot for those purposes where it is appropriate. The
MacDraw like operation isn't.

> Why?  All that manual busy work in a GUI app just doesn’t make much sense.  
> I’d much rather find a way to give the computer the numbers and let *it* do 
> that tedious stuff. 

Because it would take much more time to teach the computer what I want
instead of do it manually myself.

The computer knows well about numbers. But it knows little about taste -
which segment I would feel to be best visible where, by size, by color,
by logical grouping etc. And which segment I'd like to pull out, lake
the first piece of cake, since that one would be very important to show
- and which direction to pull it out.

> If you’re expecting someone to write a Mac-specific app to do those 
> things, you have to make a better case than you’ve done here.

My hope was that someone already knew the app which would do this job
properly. Libreoffice is actually pretty good for simple drawings - but
it just can not do yet what I'm looking for.

I remember freehand as an excellent tool for the more difficult things
that MacDraw could not do. But still that was 25 years ago.

I'd expect for current tools to be even better than those ancient ones.
But actually their focus seems to have shifted, from some simple manual
operations to something better (?) which I do not need.

As I mentionned, I was amazed what Sketchup could do, as a 3D tool. I
coulde use it immediately and got better and better with it. But I did
not feel as comfortable with any of those tools I have learned about
within this thread here.

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#464

For your reference, records indicate that 
Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> You are right that MacDraw did not support to cut crossings. But it
> supported very well to draw circle arcs as part of a cicle.

As does SVG, and thus any tool that can edit that format, including 
Safari (the snippet editor is great for live-viewing changes) or your 
favorite Mac text editor.  Again, since your drawing is going to be 
based on data, it makes very little sense to use a GUI to create it 
manually.

> Those web apps stop me as long as they do not support those operations.

But they do.  You’re just not bothering to try them, or willing to use 
the SVG generated as a template.  What’s the big problem with changing 
`stroke-width="4"` to `stroke-width="7"`, for example?

> Because I do use gnuplot for those purposes where it is appropriate. The
> MacDraw like operation isn't.

You have yet to give an operation that *was* done by MacDraw that isn’t 
supported by SVG.  Yeah, it’s a bit of a bummer that Apple does such a 
poor job of integrating open source tools like Inkscape.  Maybe it’s time 
to start giving some money to non-trillion-dollar companies that actually 
support the things you want to do?

> Because it would take much more time to teach the computer what I want
> instead of do it manually myself.

Clearly not.  In the time you’ve take here to run down existing solutions, 
you could have just plugged in your numbers and gotten the graphic you 
wanted.  Do you want to solve the problem or do you just want to moan about 
it?

> My hope was that someone already knew the app which would do this job
> properly. Libreoffice is actually pretty good for simple drawings - but
> it just can not do yet what I'm looking for.

You’ve been getting suggestions, but nobody here is a mind reader.  Your 
notion of “properly” is apparently something that keeps you from even 
getting to the starting line to create just a *basic* pie chart.  As 
someone who uses slrn, you should realize that there are some software 
markets that the Mac community just isn’t big enough to support. 

> I'd expect for current tools to be even better than those ancient ones.
> But actually their focus seems to have shifted, from some simple manual
> operations to something better (?) which I do not need.

Vote with your wallet.  If the current Apple ecosystem is not to your 
liking any longer, explore outside it.  I very much like the Raspberry Pi 
platform, because it reminds me a lot of the educational/hobbiest Apple 
of my youth.  Inkscape is an easy install there, and you could get to 
click-click-click creating a custom pie chart in minutes.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

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#465

On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:28:04 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary wrote:
> But they do.  You’re just not bothering to try them, or willing to use 
> the SVG generated as a template.  What’s the big problem with changing 
> `stroke-width="4"` to `stroke-width="7"`, for example?

Because I use a Mac which is famous for graphical, intuitive usage.

It's great since it also supports a unixoid terminal. But it's less
famous for that.

> You have yet to give an operation that *was* done by MacDraw that isn’t 
> supported by SVG. 

Pattern filling for grouped objects?

> Vote with your wallet.  If the current Apple ecosystem is not to your 
> liking any longer, explore outside it.  I very much like the Raspberry Pi 
> platform, because it reminds me a lot of the educational/hobbiest Apple 
> of my youth.  Inkscape is an easy install there, and you could get to 
> click-click-click creating a custom pie chart in minutes.

I could not get the job done with inkscape 0.92.2. Please feel free to
create a sample file to show me how you did it.

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#469

For your reference, records indicate that 
Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:28:04 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > But they do.  You’re just not bothering to try them, or willing to use 
> > the SVG generated as a template.  What’s the big problem with changing 
> > `stroke-width="4"` to `stroke-width="7"`, for example?
> 
> Because I use a Mac which is famous for graphical, intuitive usage.

But, ironically, creating custom pie charts is *not* something that greatly 
benefits from a GUI.  If you’re starting with a set of numbers (or any data 
source), let the computer do its job.

> > You have yet to give an operation that *was* done by MacDraw that isn’t 
> > supported by SVG. 
> 
> Pattern filling for grouped objects?

You are wrong.  Patterns can be applied to containers in SVG.  Here’s an 
example I whipped up in Safari’s snippet editor:

<svg width="640" height="640" >
<defs>
	<pattern id="GridPattern" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse"
			 x="0" y="0" width="10" height="10"
			 viewBox="0 0 10 10" >
	  <rect fill="none" stroke="gray" x="0" y="0" width="10" height="10"/>
	</pattern> 
</defs>

<g fill="url(#GridPattern)">
<rect x="10" y="10" width="100" height="100" />
<rect x="200" y="200" width="100" height="100" />
</g>

</svg>

> I could not get the job done with inkscape 0.92.2. Please feel free to
> create a sample file to show me how you did it.

A sample of *what*?  You’ve gone out of your way to not do any work or say 
exactly what it is you want that isn’t done by existing tools.  Like I said 
before, how about *you* create the sample file that gets you to your limit 
and *then* ask people about the specific roadblock you’ve run into.  
Because, right now, it really doesn’t seem like you’re eager to actually 
solve a problem.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

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#466

On 2021-09-21, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> I want to draw a square.
>
> I want to draw a circle, crossing the sqare.
>
> I want to draw some lines, cutting the circle.
>
> I want to cut the circle into pieces where I have crossings. I want to
> move or delete those pieces.
>
> I want to fill areas with colors or patterns.
>
> I want to adjust line width and colors
>
> I want to save this as jpg, gif, png or pdf
>
> I want to paste images from png files.

Again, any illustration app can do all of this. It's just a matter of
learning how to use the app in question.

> If I'd want to convert data to graphics automatically, I'd propably
> use something like gnuplot.

I'd just use the graph capability of a spreadsheet for that, as it's the
fastest and simplest way to do it.

> But the data I got is e.g. a pie chart with 18%, 20%, 45 %. I'd
> convert this to degrees, draw a line, duplicate and rotate that line
> by the proper degree, from the center of a circle. Then I'd cut the
> circle to pizza segments. 

That sounds like a lot of work just to create a pie chart. You can
create pie charts in ewer steps in Affinity Designer with the Pie Chart
tool:

<https://affinity.help/designer/en-US.lproj/index.html?page=pages/Tools/tools_pie.html?title=Pie%20Tool>

> I'll group and push a certain pizza segment I need outwards. I'd
> duplicate the pizza segment downwards, Add two lines and make it to a
> 3d pie segment. Then I'd add some text where it does look best.
>
> Those are really simple gui operations which are done within a few
> minuts, when you have a proper tool. It's really nothing fancy - put
> cut and split is not that easy in the tools I've checked by now.

Designer can do all o this quite effortlessly as well.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#467

On 27 Sep 2021 18:40:01 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2021-09-21, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>> I want to draw a square.
>>
>> I want to draw a circle, crossing the sqare.
>>
>> I want to draw some lines, cutting the circle.
>>
>> I want to cut the circle into pieces where I have crossings. I want to
>> move or delete those pieces.
>>
>> I want to fill areas with colors or patterns.
>>
>> I want to adjust line width and colors
>>
>> I want to save this as jpg, gif, png or pdf
>>
>> I want to paste images from png files.
>
> Again, any illustration app can do all of this. It's just a matter of
> learning how to use the app in question.

You might be surprised how much from an "obvious" solution some
applications do handle those tasks. 

Personally, I was surprised by one app which offered to draw squares,
which ended up in four separate lines. Ok, you could group thos four
lines to a single object. But you could not handle this object like you
could handle a real square.

>> If I'd want to convert data to graphics automatically, I'd propably
>> use something like gnuplot.
>
> I'd just use the graph capability of a spreadsheet for that, as it's the
> fastest and simplest way to do it.

Only if you like how the spreadsheet will do this on its own.

Best behavior is to create a chart with a spreadsheet, do a copy/paste
to a graphical program and edit it over there.

>> But the data I got is e.g. a pie chart with 18%, 20%, 45 %. I'd
>> convert this to degrees, draw a line, duplicate and rotate that line
>> by the proper degree, from the center of a circle. Then I'd cut the
>> circle to pizza segments. 
>
> That sounds like a lot of work just to create a pie chart. 

What I actually want to do is beyond the scope of a pie chart. But the
pie chart is a suitable example of what I want to achieve - especially
the part of cutting a circle into pieces at an intersection with an
object with straight lines.

>> I'll group and push a certain pizza segment I need outwards. I'd
>> duplicate the pizza segment downwards, Add two lines and make it to a
>> 3d pie segment. Then I'd add some text where it does look best.
>>
>> Those are really simple gui operations which are done within a few
>> minuts, when you have a proper tool. It's really nothing fancy - put
>> cut and split is not that easy in the tools I've checked by now.
>
> Designer can do all o this quite effortlessly as well.

How about a contest. I'll draw a sample image with sketchup to show you
what I want to get done. The others show how they would have done it and
how complicated it was - or how far they come, until the job is not
supported by the tool any more.

I'll use sketchup since it is a free tool which is very easy to use,
although it is a 3D tool and does not handle circles very well. It does
not support to define a line width, so I will have to create the width
with inner and outer lines and fill it.

Who would join this comparison, with which tool?

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#468

On 2021-09-28, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 27 Sep 2021 18:40:01 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2021-09-21, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to draw a square.
>>>
>>> I want to draw a circle, crossing the sqare.
>>>
>>> I want to draw some lines, cutting the circle.
>>>
>>> I want to cut the circle into pieces where I have crossings. I want to
>>> move or delete those pieces.
>>>
>>> I want to fill areas with colors or patterns.
>>>
>>> I want to adjust line width and colors
>>>
>>> I want to save this as jpg, gif, png or pdf
>>>
>>> I want to paste images from png files.
>>
>> Again, any illustration app can do all of this. It's just a matter of
>> learning how to use the app in question.
>
> You might be surprised how much from an "obvious" solution some
> applications do handle those tasks. 

How obvious it is is a separate issue. What matters is that they can do
what you want.

> Personally, I was surprised by one app which offered to draw squares,
> which ended up in four separate lines. Ok, you could group thos four
> lines to a single object. But you could not handle this object like
> you could handle a real square.

Sounds suspiciously like Inkscape. We used it to create vector
illustrations in my previous job, and it was a nightmare for some things
- so much so that often people would avoid it entirely in favor of Adobe
Illustrator or similar tools.

>> Designer can do all o this quite effortlessly as well.
>
> How about a contest. I'll draw a sample image with sketchup to show
> you what I want to get done. The others show how they would have done
> it and how complicated it was - or how far they come, until the job is
> not supported by the tool any more.
>
> I'll use sketchup since it is a free tool which is very easy to use,
> although it is a 3D tool and does not handle circles very well. It
> does not support to define a line width, so I will have to create the
> width with inner and outer lines and fill it.
>
> Who would join this comparison, with which tool?

Sorry, I don't have *that* much free time. I'm doing well to comment
here occasionally. : D ...but it does sound like an interesting
exercise.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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