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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #87133 > unrolled thread
| Started by | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-05-26 02:21 -0400 |
| Last post | 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 260 — 16 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.os.linux.misc
Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 02:21 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 08:46 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:47 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:25 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 09:53 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:38 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:35 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 22:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-26 16:17 -0700
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 00:02 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-27 00:11 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-28 10:32 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 08:41 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-27 11:04 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:31 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:18 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:42 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 15:01 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 21:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 11:07 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:14 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:26 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 17:24 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:37 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 22:34 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:09 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 23:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-31 21:45 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:15 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 18:53 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-02 01:46 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 03:01 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:12 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:16 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 21:26 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:48 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:35 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 17:25 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-04 03:51 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:34 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 16:06 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 20:20 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-04 18:27 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:30 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 19:24 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 20:04 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 22:25 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:15 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 02:19 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 08:34 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 10:26 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-06-04 08:18 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:48 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 10:36 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-04 17:58 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 14:56 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-04 22:07 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 22:18 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-05 03:40 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-05 00:13 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-06-05 03:12 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 23:38 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-05 03:51 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 02:58 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 11:11 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 22:15 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 22:32 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 02:33 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:57 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:40 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:31 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-29 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:38 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 05:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 03:10 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 07:14 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:49 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-01 04:57 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:20 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 19:45 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 18:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:27 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 10:49 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 13:16 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 00:00 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:43 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:35 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:21 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 18:25 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 21:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:06 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:32 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:43 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 13:05 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:14 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:31 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:43 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 19:28 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 20:10 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 22:27 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:13 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:48 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-03 18:58 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:46 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:00 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-06-02 17:44 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 17:54 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 16:57 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 21:02 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:41 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:13 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:47 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 01:01 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-03 21:18 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-04 18:02 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:44 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:48 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 00:26 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:53 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:49 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 01:03 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 10:07 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 10:57 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 16:31 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 12:08 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-04 18:13 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 15:03 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-04 22:27 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 22:45 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:10 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 22:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:52 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-04 19:18 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 21:28 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-06-05 03:14 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 00:30 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:51 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:56 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 02:11 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:17 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:50 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 01:07 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:47 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:33 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:25 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 02:12 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:03 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:06 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 00:46 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 08:09 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:02 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 22:31 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 01:36 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:26 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:31 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:37 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-30 09:09 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:17 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-31 07:33 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:14 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:09 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:51 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:28 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:58 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 20:51 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-27 14:02 -0700
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 08:54 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-28 05:04 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:54 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-05-28 09:15 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:29 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:45 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-29 02:50 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:17 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:48 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:25 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:20 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 14:16 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 04:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 23:41 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:09 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:51 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-28 17:08 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 22:14 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 04:41 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:53 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:32 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:19 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:52 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:46 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-03 00:27 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 03:26 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-03 21:30 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 08:13 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 03:03 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:12 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:08 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:33 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:45 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:08 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:39 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 13:21 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:57 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 22:39 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:10 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 09:05 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 08:19 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:52 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:20 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 20:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-28 21:07 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:40 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:12 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:28 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 12:15 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:19 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:30 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:29 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 16:49 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:18 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-06-02 17:38 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 15:48 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 00:39 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 17:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:03 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 12:22 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:39 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 00:48 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 01:21 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:08 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:41 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:23 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 23:00 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:44 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:45 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:38 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Worst Case" <fritz@spamexpire-202605.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200
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| From | TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-02 21:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <a3a9e781b1087009b1ee@dev.null> |
| In reply to | #87389 |
>On Tue, 2 Jun 2026 16:57:02 -0400, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: >On 6/2/2026 1:54 PM, TheLastSysop wrote: >> One practical thing is to treat the ONT, router, and any switch you actually >> need as one small critical load and measure that load before buying the UPS. >> A >> lot of the little network boxes draw less than their wall warts imply, so a >> modest UPS can run them longer than expected if it is not also carrying a PC, >> monitor, printer, etc. > >One thing that's worth mentioning is that use of a convention AC UPS >involves inherent losses from converting the DC power to AC, then back >to DC. The Verizon backup units at least avoided this issue because the >backup battery supplies DC power straight to the ONT. > >There are various ways to extend the runtime and maintain this property, >of varying complexity. But a standard UPS meant for a PC is not a good >UPS for something like a router or ONT which runs off 12 VDC, not 120 VAC. > >> I would also do a planned pull-the-plug test while nothing important depends >> on >> it. If the ONT and router stay up but the provider's upstream plant drops, >> then >> more battery on the customer side will not buy much. If it stays online, >> then >> the UPS runtime number is actually worth optimizing. > >Yes, this is a good point. When I moved to where I am now, I was >tinkering with backup options for various equipment. I discovered that >even if I powered my cable modem during an outage, the Internet >immediately went out, showing that the cable network required active >equipment that had zero backup power in an outage. > >In contrast, my phone service over fiber continued working (only because >I had my local lead acid battery backup for the ONT.) > >I have lived in other places where the cable didn't immediately go out >during an outage either, so this kind of thing probably varies from >place to place. > >I don't really fault Comcast for not keeping things going in an outage. >I really couldn't care less whether anything except the phone keeps >working in a power outage. I have UPS equipment for my PC, server rack, >etc. but that's to shut everything down safely, not keep the network >going for any meaningful length of time. Agreed. If the load is all small DC gear, a purpose-built DC UPS or a battery system with regulated 12 V / 9 V / 5 V outputs is often a better fit than dragging the power through an inverter and a pile of wall warts. The catches are worth checking before buying parts: the connector polarity, the actual voltage tolerance of the ONT/router, startup current, and whether the unit passes clean power while charging. Some cheap "12 V UPS" boxes are really just lithium packs with a boost converter and optimistic labels. A safe approach is to measure the real load, size the battery for the desired runtime with conversion losses included, add proper fusing, then do the same planned outage test. That answers both questions: whether the local gear survives and whether the provider side stays up long enough to matter. -- TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> "I survived the great rm -rf / rehearsal and all I got was this .signature."
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 11:41 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <4g95fmxucn.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87389 |
On 2026-06-02 22:57, InterLinked wrote: > On 6/2/2026 1:54 PM, TheLastSysop wrote: >> One practical thing is to treat the ONT, router, and any switch you >> actually >> need as one small critical load and measure that load before buying >> the UPS. A >> lot of the little network boxes draw less than their wall warts imply, >> so a >> modest UPS can run them longer than expected if it is not also >> carrying a PC, >> monitor, printer, etc. > > One thing that's worth mentioning is that use of a convention AC UPS > involves inherent losses from converting the DC power to AC, then back > to DC. The Verizon backup units at least avoided this issue because the > backup battery supplies DC power straight to the ONT. Yes. There are DC UPS out there, though. I posted some samples yesterday: <https://www.amazon.es/-/en/APC-Back-UPS-Connect-CP12036LI-Controladores/dp/B0CJ5D89Z9> <https://www.amazon.es/-/en/Internal-Battery-Lightweight-Protects-Overloads/dp/B07DPTF9VW> <https://www.amazon.es/-/en/Salicru-658BB000009-SPS-net2/dp/B0DHL4XRBW/> <https://www.amazon.es/-/en/Shanqiu-Router-Surveillance-Camera-Output/dp/B0FF9QS7LK/> > > There are various ways to extend the runtime and maintain this property, > of varying complexity. But a standard UPS meant for a PC is not a good > UPS for something like a router or ONT which runs off 12 VDC, not 120 VAC. Not the best thing, but it is what I have now. It powers several things, including my TV set, the wireless phone... > >> I would also do a planned pull-the-plug test while nothing important >> depends on >> it. If the ONT and router stay up but the provider's upstream plant >> drops, then >> more battery on the customer side will not buy much. If it stays >> online, then >> the UPS runtime number is actually worth optimizing. > > Yes, this is a good point. When I moved to where I am now, I was > tinkering with backup options for various equipment. I discovered that > even if I powered my cable modem during an outage, the Internet > immediately went out, showing that the cable network required active > equipment that had zero backup power in an outage. > When there was a energy zero here not yet a month ago, I forgot to verify that point. I think I did not have fibre. I was busy orderly powering down computers and forgot to test internet. Initially I did not know the whole of Spain went down. > In contrast, my phone service over fiber continued working (only because > I had my local lead acid battery backup for the ONT.) > > I have lived in other places where the cable didn't immediately go out > during an outage either, so this kind of thing probably varies from > place to place. > > I don't really fault Comcast for not keeping things going in an outage. > I really couldn't care less whether anything except the phone keeps > working in a power outage. I have UPS equipment for my PC, server rack, > etc. but that's to shut everything down safely, not keep the network > going for any meaningful length of time. Indeed. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 02:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10vo2kk$3b3aj$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87379 |
Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote: > On 2026-06-01, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: >> On 6/1/2026 2:30 PM, Rich wrote: >>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>> On 2026-06-01 05:20, Rich wrote: >>>> What could happen is mandating the router or ONT have a battery backup >>>> included, or at least optional. As simple as installing a bunch of AA >>>> batteries. >>> >>> Yep, that's already what Verizon does with their FIOS service. One >>> gets either a lead acid battery (UPS style battery) that will power the >>> ONT for "some time" on a power fail, or one gets a rather large box >>> that holds something like 12 D sized alkaline cell batteries as the >>> "backup power" should mains be out. I'm not sure if the different >>> types arrive based on price level purchased, or just on "previously, >>> they privided this, now they provide that". >> >> The lead acid is the older variety and the D cell is the newer one. I >> had to buy the older kind on eBay as they are not really available >> anymore. Neither is sufficient, you can get 8-24 hours of standby power >> with these kinds, but that's woefully inadequate in an extended outage, >> and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected to bear. > > Verizon's FIOS/fiber successors (at least on the Verizon -> > Frontier -> Ziply path) no longer provide for any battery backup. > The new ziply ONTs have nothing for any duration longer than > maybe a second (likely at most a fraction of a second). A > customer can add a UPS to power the ONT, but it's anyone's guess > whether Ziply now maintains power to even any neighborhood > concentration equipment or "central office" facilities. Damn, so they've completly given up on even giving the impression that the replacement fiber might appear to be some level of equivalent to the old POTS network. And you do make a fair point. If Ziply's delivering "no backup by default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the concentrators or central offices either. So even a customer who invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at the other end of the long thin glass tube.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 11:47 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tp95fmxucn.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87398 |
On 2026-06-03 04:13, Rich wrote: > Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote: >> On 2026-06-01, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: >>> On 6/1/2026 2:30 PM, Rich wrote: >>>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>>> On 2026-06-01 05:20, Rich wrote: >>>>> What could happen is mandating the router or ONT have a battery backup >>>>> included, or at least optional. As simple as installing a bunch of AA >>>>> batteries. >>>> >>>> Yep, that's already what Verizon does with their FIOS service. One >>>> gets either a lead acid battery (UPS style battery) that will power the >>>> ONT for "some time" on a power fail, or one gets a rather large box >>>> that holds something like 12 D sized alkaline cell batteries as the >>>> "backup power" should mains be out. I'm not sure if the different >>>> types arrive based on price level purchased, or just on "previously, >>>> they privided this, now they provide that". >>> >>> The lead acid is the older variety and the D cell is the newer one. I >>> had to buy the older kind on eBay as they are not really available >>> anymore. Neither is sufficient, you can get 8-24 hours of standby power >>> with these kinds, but that's woefully inadequate in an extended outage, >>> and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected to bear. >> >> Verizon's FIOS/fiber successors (at least on the Verizon -> >> Frontier -> Ziply path) no longer provide for any battery backup. >> The new ziply ONTs have nothing for any duration longer than >> maybe a second (likely at most a fraction of a second). A >> customer can add a UPS to power the ONT, but it's anyone's guess >> whether Ziply now maintains power to even any neighborhood >> concentration equipment or "central office" facilities. > > Damn, so they've completly given up on even giving the impression that > the replacement fiber might appear to be some level of equivalent to > the old POTS network. > > And you do make a fair point. If Ziply's delivering "no backup by > default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the > bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the > concentrators or central offices either. So even a customer who > invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at > the other end of the long thin glass tube. > During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator. Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure: being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the elevator to the next floor and open the door. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 01:01 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10vqf9h$1lkj$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87417 |
On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote: > During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone > coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively > near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator. > > Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure: > being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the > elevator to the next floor and open the door. Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get relabeled as "vertically-moving Faraday cages". -- Nuno Silva
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| From | InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 21:18 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <10vqjos$36p4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87464 |
On 6/3/2026 8:01 PM, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote: > >> During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone >> coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively >> near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator. >> >> Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure: >> being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the >> elevator to the next floor and open the door. > > Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get relabeled > as "vertically-moving Faraday cages". Well, historically (even now), elevators are generally required to have telephones in them for emergency. Of course with everything going to pot now (no pun intended), there's no longer any expectation that that phone will even work in a power outage when the elevator goes out. But that's "business as usual", who cares? Not the regulators...
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <Lb7UR.2$xD2.0@fx39.iad> |
| In reply to | #87465 |
On 2026-06-04, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: > On 6/3/2026 8:01 PM, Nuno Silva wrote: > >> Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get relabeled >> as "vertically-moving Faraday cages". > > Well, historically (even now), elevators are generally required to have > telephones in them for emergency. Whenever I get into an elevator I've never ridden before, a little game of mine is to open the door marked "emergency telephone" to see whether one is there. It usually isn't. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell. / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 18:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n8dst0FfaguU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87472 |
On Thu, 04 Jun 2026 04:30:35 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > On 2026-06-04, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: > >> On 6/3/2026 8:01 PM, Nuno Silva wrote: >> >>> Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get >>> relabeled as "vertically-moving Faraday cages". >> >> Well, historically (even now), elevators are generally required to have >> telephones in them for emergency. > > Whenever I get into an elevator I've never ridden before, a little game > of mine is to open the door marked "emergency telephone" to see whether > one is there. It usually isn't. I can't remember the last time I was in an elevator. The library has one but it's only three flights of stairs to the top floor. The new, taller buildings must have them but I've never been in them.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 07:44 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <3uf7fmxt3k.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87465 |
On 2026-06-04 03:18, InterLinked wrote: > On 6/3/2026 8:01 PM, Nuno Silva wrote: >> On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> >>> During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone >>> coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively >>> near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator. >>> >>> Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure: >>> being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the >>> elevator to the next floor and open the door. >> >> Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get relabeled >> as "vertically-moving Faraday cages". > > > Well, historically (even now), elevators are generally required to have > telephones in them for emergency. Here they have something that connects with some fixed office, mostly using mobile phone infra. I mean, you can not dial, just push a button. > Of course with everything going to pot now (no pun intended), there's no > longer any expectation that that phone will even work in a power outage > when the elevator goes out. > > But that's "business as usual", who cares? Not the regulators... The phone can have batteries, to cover for a local only failure at the building. Same as they have emergency lights. But in an energy zero as happened in Spain, neighbours had to walk or drive to the office (or fire department) to report that there were people caught on this or that building. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 09:48 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10vre5c$894o$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87479 |
On 04/06/2026 06:44, Carlos E.R. wrote: > But in an energy zero as happened in Spain, neighbours had to walk or > drive to the office (or fire department) to report that there were > people caught on this or that building. 150 years ago there wouldn't have been anyone to report to. -- "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them" Margaret Thatcher
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 00:26 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <dDmdndq0rKryY733nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87417 |
On 6/3/26 05:47, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-06-03 04:13, Rich wrote: >> Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote: >>> On 2026-06-01, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: >>>> On 6/1/2026 2:30 PM, Rich wrote: >>>>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> On 2026-06-01 05:20, Rich wrote: >>>>>> What could happen is mandating the router or ONT have a battery >>>>>> backup >>>>>> included, or at least optional. As simple as installing a bunch of AA >>>>>> batteries. >>>>> >>>>> Yep, that's already what Verizon does with their FIOS service. One >>>>> gets either a lead acid battery (UPS style battery) that will power >>>>> the >>>>> ONT for "some time" on a power fail, or one gets a rather large box >>>>> that holds something like 12 D sized alkaline cell batteries as the >>>>> "backup power" should mains be out. I'm not sure if the different >>>>> types arrive based on price level purchased, or just on "previously, >>>>> they privided this, now they provide that". >>>> >>>> The lead acid is the older variety and the D cell is the newer one. I >>>> had to buy the older kind on eBay as they are not really available >>>> anymore. Neither is sufficient, you can get 8-24 hours of standby power >>>> with these kinds, but that's woefully inadequate in an extended outage, >>>> and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected >>>> to bear. >>> >>> Verizon's FIOS/fiber successors (at least on the Verizon -> >>> Frontier -> Ziply path) no longer provide for any battery backup. >>> The new ziply ONTs have nothing for any duration longer than >>> maybe a second (likely at most a fraction of a second). A >>> customer can add a UPS to power the ONT, but it's anyone's guess >>> whether Ziply now maintains power to even any neighborhood >>> concentration equipment or "central office" facilities. >> >> Damn, so they've completly given up on even giving the impression that >> the replacement fiber might appear to be some level of equivalent to >> the old POTS network. >> >> And you do make a fair point. If Ziply's delivering "no backup by >> default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the >> bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the >> concentrators or central offices either. So even a customer who >> invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at >> the other end of the long thin glass tube. >> > > During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone > coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively near > a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator. > > > Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure: being > trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the elevator > to the next floor and open the door. NO safe way to do that with conventional motor/cable elevator design. Well, I can think of one or two 'trick' mechanisms, but they'd add to costs considerably. A 'viscous fluid' turbine cylinder that kicks in when power kicks out would serve. Gotta release the conventional motor/brakes at the same time. The box would just drift down. Now HYDRAULIC elevators ... easy to have a power-loss bleed-off valve. However you rarely see hydraulic elevators over three floors tall - the telescoping tube thing gets too difficult.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 07:53 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1fg7fmxhlm.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87470 |
On 2026-06-04 06:26, c186282 wrote: > On 6/3/26 05:47, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2026-06-03 04:13, Rich wrote: >>> Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote: >>>> On 2026-06-01, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: >> During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone >> coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively >> near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator. >> >> >> Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure: >> being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the >> elevator to the next floor and open the door. > > NO safe way to do that with conventional motor/cable > elevator design. I have heard that it does exist. Uses some battery. I asked ChatGPT, and it says that they are common in Spain. Google confirms and finds sources: Spanish: <https://dazentech.com/es/que-es-un-dispositivo-de-rescate-automatico-para-ascensores/> <https://fain.es/blog/en-que-consiste-el-rearme-remoto-en-el-ascensor/> <https://es.safe-lifts.net/news/what-is-an-automatic-elevator-rescue-device-17676355837518848.html> ... -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 11:49 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10vp0rn$3igml$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87398 |
On 03/06/2026 03:13, Rich wrote: > And you do make a fair point. If Ziply's delivering "no backup by > default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the > bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the > concentrators or central offices either. So even a customer who > invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at > the other end of the long thin glass tube. Have you any idea how remote these are? Typically 40-70km, and they don't have that much kit either. The whole last 30 miles is essentially passive...until you get to CPE. And the backhaul it relies upon after that is the same as copper based signals anyway. In short it should be *more* reliable in a power cut apart from the CPE. If you want redundancy buy your won bloody batteries -- "Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold." ― Confucius
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 01:03 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <dDmdnde0rKqOmrz3nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87425 |
On 6/3/26 06:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 03/06/2026 03:13, Rich wrote: >> And you do make a fair point. If Ziply's delivering "no backup by >> default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the >> bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the >> concentrators or central offices either. So even a customer who >> invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at >> the other end of the long thin glass tube. > > Have you any idea how remote these are? > > Typically 40-70km, and they don't have that much kit either. > The whole last 30 miles is essentially passive...until > you get to CPE. > > > And the backhaul it relies upon after that is the same as copper based > signals anyway. > > In short it should be *more* reliable in a power cut apart from the CPE. > > If you want redundancy buy your won bloody batteries We do. Alas your "more reliable" fiber ... HOW much "more" in a disaster situation ? Never seen it quantified. Claims - but no numbers, no field data. When that big hurricane pushed up into the central USA all towers/fiber/whatever went DOWN, pretty fast, TOO fast ... a lot of people perished because they could not even call for help. Authorities had to scrounge up a lot of sat-phones/StarLink quick. Wasn't quick enough. Maybe you live in some magical place where nothing serious ever happens ???
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 10:07 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10vrf81$894o$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87477 |
On 04/06/2026 06:03, c186282 wrote: > On 6/3/26 06:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 03/06/2026 03:13, Rich wrote: >>> And you do make a fair point. If Ziply's delivering "no backup by >>> default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the >>> bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the >>> concentrators or central offices either. So even a customer who >>> invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at >>> the other end of the long thin glass tube. >> >> Have you any idea how remote these are? >> >> Typically 40-70km, and they don't have that much kit either. >> The whole last 30 miles is essentially passive...until >> you get to CPE. >> >> >> And the backhaul it relies upon after that is the same as copper based >> signals anyway. >> >> In short it should be *more* reliable in a power cut apart from the CPE. >> >> If you want redundancy buy your won bloody batteries > > We do. > > Alas your "more reliable" fiber ... HOW much "more" > in a disaster situation ? Never seen it quantified. > Claims - but no numbers, no field data. > Depends on te disaster. 100% OK in floods., Not so much earthquakes. But then neither is copper. Ukraine shows that best comms in a war is Starlink or fibre. line of sight RF doesnmt survive jamming > When that big hurricane pushed up into the central USA > all towers/fiber/whatever went DOWN, pretty fast, TOO > fast ... a lot of people perished because they could > not even call for help. Authorities had to scrounge > up a lot of sat-phones/StarLink quick. Wasn't quick > enough. > > Maybe you live in some magical place where nothing > serious ever happens ??? > No,. I live in a place where very serious things have happened, and technology evolved to deal with them By and large we are bot worried about theoretical possibilities. We can look at Ukraine to see what survives a war zone. It turns out to be fiber " Fiber-optic drones began proliferating across other areas of the front, graduating from a niche capability to a staple weapon. Their use has since expanded to such an extent that vast swaths of Ukrainian farmland and forest are now littered with fiber-optic cables shed by drones. Fiber-optic drones have also featured prominently in a series of major battles, including the most consequential fighting of the past year in the Pokrovsk region of eastern Ukraine. By mid-2025, the fiber-optic drone story was no longer so one-sided as Ukraine moved to replicate and adapt the capability. Domestic production surged thanks to Ukraine’s agile ecosystem of innovative defense tech startups. Within months, more than 80 Ukrainian-designed fiber-optic systems had been approved for use, while the number of Ukrainian companies involved in producing or integrating this category of drones has rapidly expanded. Ukrainian developers are now pushing the boundaries of range, with the country’s famous Birds of Magyar drone unit fielding a fiber-optic drone model capable of reaching approximately forty kilometers. What began as a Russian experiment has evolved into a mutual innovation cycle in which Ukraine is now leading in certain aspects. " https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/fiber-optics-drones-have-emerged-as-critical-kit-for-both-russia-and-ukraine/ When you cab lay a 40knm fiber using a drone its not hard to get a basic comms net up. Other methods using RF in non conflict areas include starlink type satellites, in LEO, or any form of 'high point' RF hotspot using e.g. balloons, loitering aircraft or drones, or simply high terrain. Given advances in battery, drone and fibre technology, it would be far quicker and simpler to run a fibre controlled drone equipped with 3G etc into a disaster zone than lay in new copper -- Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason they are poor. Peter Thompson
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 10:57 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <N_WdnR6fmcb4D7z3nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87494 |
On 6/4/26 05:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 04/06/2026 06:03, c186282 wrote: >> On 6/3/26 06:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 03/06/2026 03:13, Rich wrote: >>>> And you do make a fair point. If Ziply's delivering "no backup by >>>> default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the >>>> bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the >>>> concentrators or central offices either. So even a customer who >>>> invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at >>>> the other end of the long thin glass tube. >>> >>> Have you any idea how remote these are? >>> >>> Typically 40-70km, and they don't have that much kit either. >>> The whole last 30 miles is essentially passive...until >>> you get to CPE. >>> >>> >>> And the backhaul it relies upon after that is the same as copper >>> based signals anyway. >>> >>> In short it should be *more* reliable in a power cut apart from the CPE. >>> >>> If you want redundancy buy your won bloody batteries >> >> We do. >> >> Alas your "more reliable" fiber ... HOW much "more" >> in a disaster situation ? Never seen it quantified. >> Claims - but no numbers, no field data. >> > Depends on te disaster. 100% OK in floods., Not so much earthquakes. > But then neither is copper. > > Ukraine shows that best comms in a war is Starlink or fibre. line of > sight RF doesnmt survive jamming > > > >> When that big hurricane pushed up into the central USA >> all towers/fiber/whatever went DOWN, pretty fast, TOO >> fast ... a lot of people perished because they could >> not even call for help. Authorities had to scrounge >> up a lot of sat-phones/StarLink quick. Wasn't quick >> enough. >> > >> Maybe you live in some magical place where nothing >> serious ever happens ??? >> > No,. I live in a place where very serious things have happened, and > technology evolved to deal with them > > By and large we are bot worried about theoretical possibilities. > > We can look at Ukraine to see what survives a war zone. > > It turns out to be fiber > > " Fiber-optic drones began proliferating across other areas of the > front, graduating from a niche capability to a staple weapon. Their use > has since expanded to such an extent that vast swaths of Ukrainian > farmland and forest are now littered with fiber-optic cables shed by > drones. Fiber-optic drones have also featured prominently in a series of > major battles, including the most consequential fighting of the past > year in the Pokrovsk region of eastern Ukraine. > > By mid-2025, the fiber-optic drone story was no longer so one-sided as > Ukraine moved to replicate and adapt the capability. Domestic production > surged thanks to Ukraine’s agile ecosystem of innovative defense tech > startups. Within months, more than 80 Ukrainian-designed fiber-optic > systems had been approved for use, while the number of Ukrainian > companies involved in producing or integrating this category of drones > has rapidly expanded. > > Ukrainian developers are now pushing the boundaries of range, with the > country’s famous Birds of Magyar drone unit fielding a fiber-optic drone > model capable of reaching approximately forty kilometers. What began as > a Russian experiment has evolved into a mutual innovation cycle in which > Ukraine is now leading in certain aspects. " > > > https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/fiber-optics-drones- > have-emerged-as-critical-kit-for-both-russia-and-ukraine/ > > When you cab lay a 40knm fiber using a drone its not hard to get a basic > comms net up. > Other methods using RF in non conflict areas include starlink type > satellites, in LEO, or any form of 'high point' RF hotspot using e.g. > balloons, loitering aircraft or drones, or simply high terrain. > > Given advances in battery, drone and fibre technology, it would be far > quicker and simpler to run a fibre controlled drone equipped with 3G etc > into a disaster zone than lay in new copper Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin, not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link. Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, to RF/Laser, and now back to a version of "wire". In any case, copper or fiber are still *physical* media and that generally means stringing it up on poles where nature can attack. The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap in the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 16:31 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10vs5nt$ffk9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87499 |
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote: > On 6/4/26 05:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> When you cab lay a 40knm fiber using a drone its not hard to get a >> basic comms net up. >> Other methods using RF in non conflict areas include starlink type >> satellites, in LEO, or any form of 'high point' RF hotspot using e.g. >> balloons, loitering aircraft or drones, or simply high terrain. >> >> Given advances in battery, drone and fibre technology, it would be >> far quicker and simpler to run a fibre controlled drone equipped with >> 3G etc into a disaster zone than lay in new copper > > > Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin, > not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link. > You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. standard monoode fibre IS hair thin "The light-carrying glass core of a single-mode (monomode) fiber is incredibly thin, measuring only about 8 to 10 micrometers ( ) in diameter. For comparison, a typical human hair is about 100 micrometers wide, making the core of a single-mode fiber roughly 10 times thinner than a single strand of hair. " > Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, to > RF/Laser, and now back to a version of "wire". > Military intelligence is an oxymoron. Especially American > In any case, copper or fiber are still *physical* media > and that generally means stringing it up on poles where > nature can attack. No. It means burying it in a trench where Nature cannot get at it. Sheesh. Not every country is as technologically stone age as the USA > The sheer mass of copper often meant > it was less likely to "flap in the breeze" compared to > a skinny fiber. The entire south and east coast of the > USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant. > Christ on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes overhead without a steel support core. -- Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice. – Will Durant
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 12:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <N_WdnRifmcaBPrz3nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87501 |
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote: >> On 6/4/26 05:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > >>> When you cab lay a 40knm fiber using a drone its not hard to get a >>> basic comms net up. >>> Other methods using RF in non conflict areas include starlink type >>> satellites, in LEO, or any form of 'high point' RF hotspot using e.g. >>> balloons, loitering aircraft or drones, or simply high terrain. >>> >>> Given advances in battery, drone and fibre technology, it would be >>> far quicker and simpler to run a fibre controlled drone equipped with >>> 3G etc into a disaster zone than lay in new copper >> >> >> Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin, >> not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link. >> > You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. standard monoode > fibre IS hair thin > > "The light-carrying glass core of a single-mode (monomode) fiber is > incredibly thin, measuring only about 8 to 10 micrometers ( > ) in diameter. > > For comparison, a typical human hair is about 100 micrometers wide, > making the core of a single-mode fiber roughly 10 times thinner than a > single strand of hair. " The FIBER itself may be very thin, but the stuff you run for permanent installations is heavily clad in tough plastic. For the mil apps, it's uncoated ... has to be ultra light to drag 40-50km behind a drone. Also, well, a ONE WAY TRIP is the goal ..... >> Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, to >> RF/Laser, and now back to a version of "wire". >> > Military intelligence is an oxymoron. Especially American It - American or not - DOES often miss the mark. >> In any case, copper or fiber are still *physical* media >> and that generally means stringing it up on poles where >> nature can attack. > > No. It means burying it in a trench where Nature cannot get at it. Sheesh. > Not every country is as technologically stone age as the USA Sheesh ... have you looked into all the PROPERTY RIGHTS and RIGHT-OF-WAY rules in the USA ? You can't just start digging a trench, you'd upset somebody's lawyers and/or destroy something expensive already down there yet poorly documented. >> The sheer mass of copper often meant >> it was less likely to "flap in the breeze" compared to >> a skinny fiber. The entire south and east coast of the >> USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant. >> > Christ on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? > NOTHING goes overhead without a steel support core. NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire. Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs. As for the USA ... Yippie-Kai-Yay ... we LIKE it that way :-)
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 18:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n8dthvFfaguU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87499 |
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:57:24 -0400, c186282 wrote: > Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin, > not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link. > > Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, to RF/Laser, > and now back to a version of "wire". I remember reading about TOW missiles beck in the '70s or '80s. My first thought was if you had to keep the aiming device on target you were exposed. To keep the math simple, if you targeted something near the maximum range of 3000 m with a missile moving at 300 m/sec you were in the breeze for a long time. I think I would prefer a fire-and-forget missile.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 15:03 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <N_WdnRefmcZhVrz3nZ2dnZfqnPgAAAAA@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87508 |
On 6/4/26 14:13, rbowman wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:57:24 -0400, c186282 wrote: > >> Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin, >> not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link. >> >> Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, to RF/Laser, >> and now back to a version of "wire". > > I remember reading about TOW missiles beck in the '70s or '80s. My first > thought was if you had to keep the aiming device on target you were > exposed. To keep the math simple, if you targeted something near the > maximum range of 3000 m with a missile moving at 300 m/sec you were in the > breeze for a long time. I think I would prefer a fire-and-forget missile. On the whole I agree fully - shoot and DUCK ! In Ukraine though, the target may be 30+ KM away, you're not likely to have someone immediately shooting back at you. JAMMING is the big problem with RF manual guidance. In the news I'm seeing more and more stories about how both Russian and Ukrainian drones are suddenly showing up in the wrong countries - both sides are using jammers on them. Laser-spot guidance ... at least in the day it's harder to track the beam back to YOU, but at night ... Oh well, the usual - what one side comes up with the other will discover how to thwart the next week.
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