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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #87133 > unrolled thread
| Started by | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-05-26 02:21 -0400 |
| Last post | 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 241 — 16 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.os.linux.misc
Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 02:21 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 08:46 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:47 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:25 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 09:53 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:38 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:35 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 22:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-26 16:17 -0700
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 00:02 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-27 00:11 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-28 10:32 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 08:41 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-27 11:04 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:31 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:18 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:42 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 15:01 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 21:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 11:07 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:14 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:26 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 17:24 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:37 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 22:34 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:09 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 23:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-31 21:45 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:15 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 18:53 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-02 01:46 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 03:01 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:12 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:16 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 21:26 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:48 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:35 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 17:25 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-04 03:51 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:34 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 16:06 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:30 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 19:24 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 20:04 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 22:25 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:15 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 02:19 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 08:34 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 10:26 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-06-04 08:18 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:48 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 10:36 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 02:58 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 11:11 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 22:15 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 22:32 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 02:33 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:57 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:40 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:31 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-29 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:38 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 05:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 03:10 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 07:14 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:49 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-01 04:57 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:20 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 19:45 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 18:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:27 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 10:49 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 13:16 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 00:00 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:43 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:35 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:21 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 18:25 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 21:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:06 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:32 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:43 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 13:05 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:14 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:31 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:43 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 19:28 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 20:10 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 22:27 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:13 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:48 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-03 18:58 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:46 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:00 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-06-02 17:44 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 17:54 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 16:57 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 21:02 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:41 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:13 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:47 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 01:01 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-03 21:18 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:44 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:48 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 00:26 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:53 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:49 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 01:03 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 10:07 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 10:57 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 16:31 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 12:08 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:10 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 22:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:52 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 00:30 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 07:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-04 09:51 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 11:56 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 02:11 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:17 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:50 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 01:07 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:47 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:33 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:25 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 02:12 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:03 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:06 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 00:46 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 08:09 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:02 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 22:31 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 01:36 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:26 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:31 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:37 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-30 09:09 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:17 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-31 07:33 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:14 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:09 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:51 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:28 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:58 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 20:51 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-27 14:02 -0700
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 08:54 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-28 05:04 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:54 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-05-28 09:15 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:29 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:45 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-29 02:50 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:17 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:48 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:25 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:20 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 14:16 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 04:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 23:41 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:09 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:51 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-28 17:08 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 22:14 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 04:41 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:53 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:32 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:19 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:52 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:46 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-03 00:27 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 03:26 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-03 21:30 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-04 08:13 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 03:03 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:12 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:08 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:33 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-03 14:45 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:08 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:39 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 13:21 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-03 02:57 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 22:39 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:10 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 09:05 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 08:19 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:52 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:20 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 20:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-28 21:07 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:40 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:12 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:28 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 12:15 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:19 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:30 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:29 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 16:49 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-03 12:18 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-06-02 17:38 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 15:48 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 00:39 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 17:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:03 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 12:22 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:39 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-03 00:48 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 01:21 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:08 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:41 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:23 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 23:00 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:44 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:45 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:38 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Worst Case" <fritz@spamexpire-202605.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-26 23:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <TJycnTMRSJib9Yv3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87167 |
On 5/26/26 19:17, John Ames wrote: > On Tue, 26 May 2026 22:09:35 -0000 (UTC) > Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote: > >> In the US, the ulterior motive actually appears to be the fact that >> POTS service is regulated (price regulated and availability >> requirements regulated) whereas the "new fangled" fiber services are >> free of those pesky requirements for requesting price increases or >> being required to provide a particular availably (uptime) level. > > Well *that* explains a lot :/ Yep. Indeed I think there are SERVICE regs where they HAVE to fix yer broken copper within some rather narrow time window. The providers do NOT like that. Probably a Cold War reg, post-nuke response to get everyone connected again. Oh well, there's always StarLink ... the main phone people didn't expect there to be an alt outside their tight grip. Phones run from about $250 USD on up - Amazon sells a fair selection. Also something kinda like a StarLink "pager" that'll do texts and get e-mails. What IS getting generally annoying is that the bulk of my monthly expense were mostly "utilities" - power and water, basic landline, plus pTax. NOW it's becoming where 'communications' expenses are exceeding even that. There really does seem to be some Vast Vampire Konspiracy at work here. And industry lobbyists will make SURE nothing's done about it. pTax ... also now ridiculous ... orgs stuffed to overflowing with 'administrative' types, fewer and fewer in-the-field DO-ers. Takes a year+ to re-pave a few miles of old road - and 'govt' doesn't even DO it, contracts-out. Waiting for the $25 "sub-space" quantum comm link you can plug into anything :-) Maybe it'll use a Pi-0 under the hood ?
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-27 14:09 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10v6qdl$2ot19$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87174 |
On 27/05/2026 04:41, c186282 wrote: > What IS getting generally annoying is that the bulk > of my monthly expense were mostly "utilities" - power > and water, basic landline, plus pTax. NOW it's becoming > where 'communications' expenses are exceeding even that. > There really does seem to be some Vast Vampire Konspiracy > at work here. It is the basis of the Democratic Dilemma. How to have enough people who can afford to buy your shit products without actually employing them and giving them the money in the first place. Or letting them have the freedom to employ themselves. -- "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics." Josef Stalin
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 03:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ec6dnYGgEcuDaYr3nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87194 |
On 5/27/26 09:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 27/05/2026 04:41, c186282 wrote: >> What IS getting generally annoying is that the bulk >> of my monthly expense were mostly "utilities" - power >> and water, basic landline, plus pTax. NOW it's becoming >> where 'communications' expenses are exceeding even that. >> There really does seem to be some Vast Vampire Konspiracy >> at work here. > > It is the basis of the Democratic Dilemma. How to have enough people who > can afford to buy your shit products without actually employing them and > giving them the money in the first place. Or letting them have the > freedom to employ themselves. At some point, probably soon, that idea is going to collapse. It'll be a big shake-up. There's a TV commercial for a firm that can track down all your service subscriptions. People often have a LOT of them, long forgotten, but still bleeding money from their accounts. Frankly, I won't WANT to give any corp access to such broad-sweep info on me. Vlad or Xi will be plugged-in. Don't HAVE many 'subscriptions' at all, and LOOK for the charges every month. But most DON'T look anymore ... then wonder why they're going broke. When 'AI' grabs their jobs ... well ...... interesting times ..........
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 17:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n7rb4iFo1qlU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87219 |
On Thu, 28 May 2026 03:51:01 -0400, c186282 wrote: > There's a TV commercial for a firm that can track down all your > service subscriptions. People often have a LOT of them, long > forgotten, > but still bleeding money from their accounts. Some month I'll summon up all my patience and try to cancel my AT&T long distance service. I haven't made a land line long distance call in years. Or they may cancel it for me. it's been on ACH for years but the last three months the payment doesn't seem to have gone through.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 22:14 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <97OcnXMzhIQIa4X3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87237 |
On 5/28/26 13:08, rbowman wrote: > On Thu, 28 May 2026 03:51:01 -0400, c186282 wrote: > >> There's a TV commercial for a firm that can track down all your >> service subscriptions. People often have a LOT of them, long >> forgotten, >> but still bleeding money from their accounts. > > Some month I'll summon up all my patience and try to cancel my AT&T long > distance service. I haven't made a land line long distance call in years. > Or they may cancel it for me. it's been on ACH for years but the last > three months the payment doesn't seem to have gone through. I have that, AND a long-dead basic DSL account. But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... BTW, the old DSL had superior performance to my New And Improved 5G router ...... but one day, unannounced, they just killed the DSL. Rebooted the router and it was all just GONE. "Sorry, we have discontinued ..." They DID send a letter saying they were not going to ADD any more hard-lines anymore, but still SURE they are just looking for The Excuse to dump 'em all. An alt comm route, alt media/tech, still seems VERY much a 'redundancy'/survival issue. Can't move my old number to wireless anything - wireless uses different xxx-0123 numbers always now. Banks, brokers, insurers, docs, govt, LOTS of people, still call the old number. Good old ANSWER MACHINE to sort out the assholes. And my cell MIGHT crap out ... NOT good for 2FA accounts.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-29 04:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n7sjnrFu3pfU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87252 |
On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: > But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my > landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it isn't a huge deal.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-29 01:53 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <97OcnW0zhIRttIT3nZ2dnZfqnPQAAAAA@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87256 |
On 5/29/26 00:41, rbowman wrote: > On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: > >> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... > > There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them > saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it > isn't a huge deal. My AT&T is *very* expensive now ... they ARE trying to scare everybody away from their copper lines. For OUR good ? NO ! Well, I can afford it ... I'm gonna put up with their extortion. MAY be some lawyers who'll get some of that back later on.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-29 06:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n7sq8kFu3pfU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87261 |
On Fri, 29 May 2026 01:53:35 -0400, c186282 wrote: > My AT&T is *very* expensive now ... they ARE trying to scare > everybody away from their copper lines. CenturyLink doesn't seem to be trying to scare people away but the cost has risen with more taxes and so forth. Usually I have 4G on the T-Mobile net but sometimes I need to move the phone around. So far the copper connection works when I pick it up.
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| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-01 13:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10vk0s8$27ab8$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87256 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: > >> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... > > There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them > saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it > isn't a huge deal. The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a single monopoly. You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T. I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local only. And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make direct-dialed long distance calls. For the once in five years I ever needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling cards" services. And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service. The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact).
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-01 22:52 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <n081fmxjks.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87335 |
On 2026-06-01 15:19, Rich wrote: > rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >> On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: >> >>> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >>> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... >> >> There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them >> saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it >> isn't a huge deal. > > The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a > single monopoly. > > You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local > service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T. > > I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local > only. And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make > direct-dialed long distance calls. For the once in five years I ever > needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling > cards" services. > > And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service. > > The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in > the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very > concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long > distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact). No, mine keeps charging long distance fares :-( Well, I can call anyone on Spain for free, but not outside. And they keep secret the VoIP configuration. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 02:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10vo4ii$3b3aj$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87345 |
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > On 2026-06-01 15:19, Rich wrote: >> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>> On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: >>> >>>> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >>>> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... >>> >>> There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them >>> saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it >>> isn't a huge deal. >> >> The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a >> single monopoly. >> >> You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local >> service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T. >> >> I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local >> only. And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make >> direct-dialed long distance calls. For the once in five years I ever >> needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling >> cards" services. >> >> And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service. >> >> The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in >> the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very >> concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long >> distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact). > > No, mine keeps charging long distance fares :-( > > Well, I can call anyone on Spain for free, but not outside. > > And they keep secret the VoIP configuration. The AT&T breakup here in the USA back in the early 80's separated (as in completely severed) the connection between "local phone service" and "long distance" service. The old AT&T "local offices" became the "baby bells" (Verizon, Pacific Bell, other's I've forgotten the names of now). The old AT&T long distance portion became a "long distance provider" but phone subscribers (who still had to use a baby-bell for phone service) were no longer required to have long distance service. It sounds like Spain works a bit differently than what formed here in the US. In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP provider). Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month. That is for "metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like $0.001/minute, i.e. so small as to be nearly zero). But I can call my next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away) for the same $0.001/minute. They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well, but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make sense in my case. Now, yes, I'm still "paying Verizon", as I'm paying them for FIOS internet service, so that I 'can' then also use VOIP for phone service. But I'd be paying for the internet service in any case, so it's not like I have FIOS /just/ to support the VOIP phone service.
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| From | InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 00:27 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <10voag2$3d2ba$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87404 |
On 6/2/2026 10:46 PM, Rich wrote: > Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >> On 2026-06-01 15:19, Rich wrote: >>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>> On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: >>>> >>>>> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >>>>> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... >>>> >>>> There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them >>>> saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it >>>> isn't a huge deal. >>> >>> The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a >>> single monopoly. >>> >>> You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local >>> service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T. >>> >>> I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local >>> only. And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make >>> direct-dialed long distance calls. For the once in five years I ever >>> needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling >>> cards" services. >>> >>> And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service. >>> >>> The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in >>> the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very >>> concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long >>> distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact). >> >> No, mine keeps charging long distance fares :-( >> >> Well, I can call anyone on Spain for free, but not outside. >> >> And they keep secret the VoIP configuration. > > The AT&T breakup here in the USA back in the early 80's separated (as > in completely severed) the connection between "local phone service" and > "long distance" service. The old AT&T "local offices" became the "baby > bells" (Verizon, Pacific Bell, other's I've forgotten the names of > now). The old AT&T long distance portion became a "long distance > provider" but phone subscribers (who still had to use a baby-bell for > phone service) were no longer required to have long distance service. > > It sounds like Spain works a bit differently than what formed here in > the US. > > In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP > provider). Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon > POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month. That is for > "metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like > $0.001/minute, i.e. so small as to be nearly zero). But I can call my > next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away) > for the same $0.001/minute. They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well, > but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever > make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make > sense in my case. But this is conflating with regulated facilities based phone service with unregulated over the top services. Also, they are not mutually exclusive. I have over 70 phone numbers myself through IP-based CLECs and thousands of minutes of call volume flow monthly through various Asterisk systems of mine for me and other folks. But I still keep the regulated POTS line because it serves a fundamentally different purpose. VoIP is great for cheap phone calls that are fine if they are best-effort, drop a few packets, etc. etc. Relying on "cheap" stuff for life/death situations is a different matter. Quality is another factor. Verizon's 5c/min long-distance plan is TDM-based, very good quality that is hard to match with VoIP services. I don't use it much, but I will often use it if I know I'm calling another POTS line. If I'm calling a VoIP or wireless number, then it's not worth the cost since the quality will suck anyways, and I send the call through a VoIP carrier. (And sometimes, I use them in tandem; placing a call to one of my VoIP numbers over the POTS line and then terminating the call often results in a noticeably better connection than doing "over the top VoIP" using a residential broadband connection.) I realize that most people these days don't care about voice quality and are quite happy with poor quality VoIP services or cell phones. I think a lot of people have forgotten or don't even know what good quality phone calls even sound like.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 03:26 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <86ecndgZ6pfcSoL3nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87408 |
On 6/3/26 00:27, InterLinked wrote: > On 6/2/2026 10:46 PM, Rich wrote: >> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>> On 2026-06-01 15:19, Rich wrote: >>>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >>>>>> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... >>>>> >>>>> There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can >>>>> see them >>>>> saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it >>>>> isn't a huge deal. >>>> >>>> The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a >>>> single monopoly. >>>> >>>> You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local >>>> service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T. >>>> >>>> I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local >>>> only. And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make >>>> direct-dialed long distance calls. For the once in five years I ever >>>> needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling >>>> cards" services. >>>> >>>> And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service. >>>> >>>> The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in >>>> the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very >>>> concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long >>>> distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact). >>> >>> No, mine keeps charging long distance fares :-( >>> >>> Well, I can call anyone on Spain for free, but not outside. >>> >>> And they keep secret the VoIP configuration. >> >> The AT&T breakup here in the USA back in the early 80's separated (as >> in completely severed) the connection between "local phone service" and >> "long distance" service. The old AT&T "local offices" became the "baby >> bells" (Verizon, Pacific Bell, other's I've forgotten the names of >> now). The old AT&T long distance portion became a "long distance >> provider" but phone subscribers (who still had to use a baby-bell for >> phone service) were no longer required to have long distance service. >> >> It sounds like Spain works a bit differently than what formed here in >> the US. >> >> In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP >> provider). Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon >> POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month. That is for >> "metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like >> $0.001/minute, i.e. so small as to be nearly zero). But I can call my >> next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away) >> for the same $0.001/minute. They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well, >> but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever >> make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make >> sense in my case. > > But this is conflating with regulated facilities based phone service > with unregulated over the top services. Also, they are not mutually > exclusive. I have over 70 phone numbers myself through IP-based CLECs > and thousands of minutes of call volume flow monthly through various > Asterisk systems of mine for me and other folks. But I still keep the > regulated POTS line because it serves a fundamentally different purpose. > VoIP is great for cheap phone calls that are fine if they are best- > effort, drop a few packets, etc. etc. Relying on "cheap" stuff for life/ > death situations is a different matter. OK - "unlimited free" may NOT be so 'realistic'. Sending info COSTS in many ways. Ruin that and you've ruined yer whole comm system (or have to support it with ridiculous 'socialistic' means). > Quality is another factor. Verizon's 5c/min long-distance plan is TDM- > based, very good quality that is hard to match with VoIP services. I > don't use it much, but I will often use it if I know I'm calling another > POTS line. If I'm calling a VoIP or wireless number, then it's not worth > the cost since the quality will suck anyways, and I send the call > through a VoIP carrier. "Quality" for digital voice/data comms WAS bad - but so was the TECH. Now (using vastly more CPU/MEM/GPUs) it's most always gonna be very good. VOIP and related are now very decent - very low latency and high quality. TOOK awhile. > (And sometimes, I use them in tandem; placing a call to one of my VoIP > numbers over the POTS line and then terminating the call often results > in a noticeably better connection than doing "over the top VoIP" using a > residential broadband connection.) Modern comms piggyback, or overlay, on EVERY available connection method. Yer TCP frames likely traverse fiber, copper, microwave, maybe even sat. It's why UDP isn't that good outside yer door. > I realize that most people these days don't care about voice > and are quite happy with poor quality VoIP services or cell > phones. I think a lot of people have forgotten or don't even > know what good quality phone calls even sound like. Well, "poor" quality now was "Just GREAT" quality even 10-15 years ago. Also, Gen-Z/A2 are AFRAID to talk to actual humans ... not sure why but it's documented. They'll text the bartender rather than call-out an order. Worrisome. Socially decompositional. Soon they'll even be afraid to text ...... then it's ALL Done. All Fall Down Go Boom. Vlad/Xi will be delighted - most Westerners socially/psych paralyzed, unable to cooperate in real time with anyone on any subject. Note, sorry, my provider/TBird crapped ... had to resend using a copy ....
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| From | InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 21:30 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <10vqkf1$3d3f$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87414 |
On 6/3/2026 3:26 AM, c186282 wrote: > On 6/3/26 00:27, InterLinked wrote: > > On 6/2/2026 10:46 PM, Rich wrote: > >> In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP > >> provider). Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon > >> POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month. That is for > >> "metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like > >> $0.001/minute, i.e. so small as to be nearly zero). But I can call my > >> next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away) > >> for the same $0.001/minute. They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well, > >> but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever > >> make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make > >> sense in my case. > > > > But this is conflating with regulated facilities based phone service > > with unregulated over the top services. Also, they are not mutually > > exclusive. I have over 70 phone numbers myself through IP-based CLECs > > and thousands of minutes of call volume flow monthly through various > > Asterisk systems of mine for me and other folks. But I still keep the > > regulated POTS line because it serves a fundamentally different purpose. > > VoIP is great for cheap phone calls that are fine if they are best- > > effort, drop a few packets, etc. etc. Relying on "cheap" stuff for life/ > > death situations is a different matter. > > OK - "unlimited free" may NOT be so 'realistic'. Sending > info COSTS in many ways. Ruin that and you've ruined yer > whole comm system (or have to support it with ridiculous > 'socialistic' means). Well, in unlimited plans, someone is always being ripped off. The customer or the provider. On the backend in the PSTN, everything is charged at variable per-minute rates anyways (well, aside from the current wet dream of the FCC to move everything to bill and keep, but conventionally speaking, anyways). Verizon, AT&T etc. do have unlimited flat-rate long-distance plans, they just cost a lot. I would have gotten it bundled in with features if they actually offered features I wanted, like Speed Calling, Selective features, distinctive ring, but instead they just have useless features like Caller ID, Call Waiting, Call Forwarding... snore... since they don't offer any features I want, I just have a plain jane no frills POTS line with long-distance added on. If they wanted more of my money, they shouldn't have grandfathered all the good features. (But of course, their agenda is to make the regulated service as unattractive as possible, by detariffing features for no reason!) > > Quality is another factor. Verizon's 5c/min long-distance plan is TDM- > > based, very good quality that is hard to match with VoIP services. I > > don't use it much, but I will often use it if I know I'm calling another > > POTS line. If I'm calling a VoIP or wireless number, then it's not worth > > the cost since the quality will suck anyways, and I send the call > > through a VoIP carrier. > > "Quality" for digital voice/data comms WAS bad - but > so was the TECH. > > Now (using vastly more CPU/MEM/GPUs) it's most always > gonna be very good. VOIP and related are now very > decent - very low latency and high quality. TOOK awhile. They are better, and can be basically almost as good as TDM, but TDM was designed for realtime data, and IP was not. Of course, it will vary by the quality of your IP link. TDM is usually either perfect or near perfect, maybe a few frame slips, or just not working - there is no packet loss, jitter, latency, etc. TDM is consistent. IP can vary. > > I realize that most people these days don't care about voice > > and are quite happy with poor quality VoIP services or cell > > phones. I think a lot of people have forgotten or don't even > > know what good quality phone calls even sound like. > > Well, "poor" quality now was "Just GREAT" quality even > 10-15 years ago. Nope, you've got it backwards. The late 90s and early 2000s were probably the peak of voice quality in the phone network, with competitive TDM-based long-distance providers. With things since moving en masse to wireless and IP, we've experienced a significant decline in average call quality from which we will, sadly, likely never recover. > Also, Gen-Z/A2 are AFRAID to talk to actual humans ... > not sure why but it's documented. They'll text the > bartender rather than call-out an order. Worrisome. > Socially decompositional. Soon they'll even be afraid > to text ...... then it's ALL Done. All Fall Down > Go Boom. Vlad/Xi will be delighted - most Westerners > socially/psych paralyzed, unable to cooperate in > real time with anyone on any subject. Yeah, that's probably related as well. Young people so rarely talk on the phone, and are used to garbage quality phone calls, that they just have no concept of what phone calls are SUPPOSED to sound like anymore. Most of the people I talk with are either on POTS or decent VoIP, but sometimes I do talk to people who are using cell phones, and the quality SUCKS and makes my head hurt. Of course, you can always tell when someone is using a cell phone or poor-quality VoIP, it just sounds bad.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 04:30 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <Lb7UR.3$xD2.0@fx39.iad> |
| In reply to | #87466 |
On 2026-06-04, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: > On 6/3/2026 3:26 AM, c186282 wrote: > >> On 6/3/26 00:27, InterLinked wrote: >> >>> Quality is another factor. Verizon's 5c/min long-distance plan is TDM- >>> based, very good quality that is hard to match with VoIP services. I >>> don't use it much, but I will often use it if I know I'm calling another >>> POTS line. If I'm calling a VoIP or wireless number, then it's not worth >>> the cost since the quality will suck anyways, and I send the call >>> through a VoIP carrier. >> >> "Quality" for digital voice/data comms WAS bad - but >> so was the TECH. >> >> Now (using vastly more CPU/MEM/GPUs) it's most always >> gonna be very good. VOIP and related are now very >> decent - very low latency and high quality. TOOK awhile. > > They are better, and can be basically almost as good as TDM, but TDM was > designed for realtime data, and IP was not. Of course, it will vary by > the quality of your IP link. TDM is usually either perfect or near > perfect, maybe a few frame slips, or just not working - there is no > packet loss, jitter, latency, etc. TDM is consistent. IP can vary. > >>> I realize that most people these days don't care about voice >>> and are quite happy with poor quality VoIP services or cell >>> phones. I think a lot of people have forgotten or don't even >>> know what good quality phone calls even sound like. >> >> Well, "poor" quality now was "Just GREAT" quality even >> 10-15 years ago. > > Nope, you've got it backwards. The late 90s and early 2000s were > probably the peak of voice quality in the phone network, with > competitive TDM-based long-distance providers. With things since moving > en masse to wireless and IP, we've experienced a significant decline in > average call quality from which we will, sadly, likely never recover. > >> Also, Gen-Z/A2 are AFRAID to talk to actual humans ... >> not sure why but it's documented. They'll text the >> bartender rather than call-out an order. Worrisome. >> Socially decompositional. Soon they'll even be afraid >> to text ...... then it's ALL Done. All Fall Down >> Go Boom. Vlad/Xi will be delighted - most Westerners >> socially/psych paralyzed, unable to cooperate in >> real time with anyone on any subject. > > Yeah, that's probably related as well. Young people so rarely talk on > the phone, and are used to garbage quality phone calls, that they just > have no concept of what phone calls are SUPPOSED to sound like anymore. > > Most of the people I talk with are either on POTS or decent VoIP, but > sometimes I do talk to people who are using cell phones, and the quality > SUCKS and makes my head hurt. Of course, you can always tell when > someone is using a cell phone or poor-quality VoIP, it just sounds bad. Maybe I'm just different, but I'd much rather put up with a bit of fuzziness or noise than the horrible phase distortion that seems to have become standard nowadays. When I hear someone calling into a talk show (or worse, being interviewed) with this sort of distortion present, I usually just change stations. Give me 1960s tech any day. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell. / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-04 08:13 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <0mh7fmx0aq.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87466 |
On 2026-06-04 03:30, InterLinked wrote: > > Yeah, that's probably related as well. Young people so rarely talk on > the phone, and are used to garbage quality phone calls, that they just > have no concept of what phone calls are SUPPOSED to sound like anymore. Not my experience. Voice quality now, in Spain, is superb. However, using WhatsApp, there are faults, specially during the start of the conversation. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 03:03 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <a9qdnfZK25eFT4L3nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87404 |
On 6/2/26 22:46, Rich wrote: > Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >> On 2026-06-01 15:19, Rich wrote: >>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>> On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: >>>> >>>>> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >>>>> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... >>>> >>>> There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them >>>> saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it >>>> isn't a huge deal. >>> >>> The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a >>> single monopoly. >>> >>> You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local >>> service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T. >>> >>> I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local >>> only. And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make >>> direct-dialed long distance calls. For the once in five years I ever >>> needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling >>> cards" services. >>> >>> And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service. >>> >>> The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in >>> the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very >>> concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long >>> distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact). >> >> No, mine keeps charging long distance fares :-( >> >> Well, I can call anyone on Spain for free, but not outside. >> >> And they keep secret the VoIP configuration. > > The AT&T breakup here in the USA back in the early 80's separated (as > in completely severed) the connection between "local phone service" and > "long distance" service. The old AT&T "local offices" became the "baby > bells" (Verizon, Pacific Bell, other's I've forgotten the names of > now). The old AT&T long distance portion became a "long distance > provider" but phone subscribers (who still had to use a baby-bell for > phone service) were no longer required to have long distance service. > > It sounds like Spain works a bit differently than what formed here in > the US. > > In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP > provider). Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon > POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month. That is for > "metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like > $0.001/minute, i.e. so small as to be nearly zero). But I can call my > next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away) > for the same $0.001/minute. They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well, > but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever > make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make > sense in my case. > > Now, yes, I'm still "paying Verizon", as I'm paying them for FIOS > internet service, so that I 'can' then also use VOIP for phone service. > But I'd be paying for the internet service in any case, so it's not > like I have FIOS /just/ to support the VOIP phone service. My Biz Sense is quasi-Libertarian. USUALLY there are good reasons to break up 'monopolies' - lowers prices for all and spurs innovation. However in the Bell/ATT case, the "Baby Bells" were NOT an improvement by and large. Still aren't, even the remaining babies double-up on the old ATT lines/links. The sheer investment to go it totally alone - WAY TOO ! Also, how does network-A connect to network-B ? That does NOT work without massive expenses. A worldwide comm system pretty much NEEDS to be homogenous and centrally planned/managed. Prices creeping too much ? Deal with THAT problem rather than destroy the backbone. Old days, you COULD dial from NYC to some random Nevada, or Mongolian, desert line Straight-Up. Might be a little 'static' sometimes but you could have a conversation. AFTER the anti-trust BS (wonder how may pols got big kickbacks ?) that wasn't as easy/cheap anymore. ATT has kind-of put it all back together again. Took a long time and weird legal maneuvers though. The "Libertarian perspective" is a GUIDE - but not an all-purpose paradigm. Gotta THINK. Politicians NEVER think ... except of their campaign finance fund ........ Note, this kind of "thinking" does, and can even more severely, impact Linux/Unix. M$/Apple would LIKE 'alternatives' DESTROYED and will offer perks if pols will help make it happen by whatever means. Recent other thread, how "Child Protection" laws can completely ruin Linux/open-source. It is NOT a trivial speculative issue at all - might easily be The Dagger M$ and Apple have long wanted. Umm ... come up with some "underground" system like NOW.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 12:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <p9b5fmxcl.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87404 |
On 2026-06-03 04:46, Rich wrote: > Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >> On 2026-06-01 15:19, Rich wrote: >>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>> On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote: >>>> >>>>> But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >>>>> landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ... >>>> >>>> There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can see them >>>> saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it >>>> isn't a huge deal. >>> >>> The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a >>> single monopoly. >>> >>> You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local >>> service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T. >>> >>> I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local >>> only. And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make >>> direct-dialed long distance calls. For the once in five years I ever >>> needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling >>> cards" services. >>> >>> And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service. >>> >>> The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in >>> the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very >>> concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long >>> distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact). >> >> No, mine keeps charging long distance fares :-( >> >> Well, I can call anyone on Spain for free, but not outside. >> >> And they keep secret the VoIP configuration. > > The AT&T breakup here in the USA back in the early 80's separated (as > in completely severed) the connection between "local phone service" and > "long distance" service. The old AT&T "local offices" became the "baby > bells" (Verizon, Pacific Bell, other's I've forgotten the names of > now). The old AT&T long distance portion became a "long distance > provider" but phone subscribers (who still had to use a baby-bell for > phone service) were no longer required to have long distance service. > Curious. > It sounds like Spain works a bit differently than what formed here in > the US. Yes, local exchanges connected to routing exchanges for long distance, these to international. All the same company, except the other countries networks. The telcos I worked for were small, but the setup at Telefonica was huge. Not as huge as in the USA :-) > > In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP > provider). Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon > POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month. That is for > "metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like > $0.001/minute, i.e. so small as to be nearly zero). But I can call my > next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away) > for the same $0.001/minute. They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well, > but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever > make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make > sense in my case. That's how it should be. Telefónica pretends we still have POTS, just using fibre instead of copper. We connect old phones to the ONT or router, we pay "normal" fees as always, and the telco denies it is possible to connect a Cisco VoIP phone to the ethernet wire. They do not publish the configuration, but some have reverse engineered it. > > Now, yes, I'm still "paying Verizon", as I'm paying them for FIOS > internet service, so that I 'can' then also use VOIP for phone service. > But I'd be paying for the internet service in any case, so it's not > like I have FIOS /just/ to support the VOIP phone service. > -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 12:08 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10vp207$3igml$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87421 |
On 03/06/2026 11:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Telefónica pretends we still have POTS, just using fibre instead of
> copper. We connect old phones to the ONT or router, we pay "normal" fees
> as always, and the telco denies it is possible to connect a Cisco VoIP
> phone to the ethernet wire. They do not publish the configuration, but
> some have reverse engineered it.
Good old EU centralised services paid for by taxpayers and riddled with
unions.
--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."
- Stephen Vizinczey
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-03 12:33 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10vp3dh$3io0e$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87432 |
On 2026-06-03, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 03/06/2026 11:12, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> Telefónica pretends we still have POTS, just using fibre instead of >> copper. We connect old phones to the ONT or router, we pay "normal" >> fees as always, and the telco denies it is possible to connect a >> Cisco VoIP phone to the ethernet wire. They do not publish the >> configuration, but some have reverse engineered it. > > Good old EU centralised services paid for by taxpayers and riddled > with unions. You say that like it's a bad thing. But others will say that's how to do it efficiently, costing less to taxpayers, and leading to a better economy and society. -- Nuno Silva
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