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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #87295 > unrolled thread
| Started by | TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-05-30 22:28 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-06-07 01:33 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 183 — 16 participants |
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The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-30 22:28 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 23:51 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 04:23 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 02:26 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 06:41 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 03:37 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 07:46 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-06 08:55 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-06 12:07 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 10:14 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-06 13:06 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 11:12 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-07 02:45 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 05:13 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-06 18:30 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-06 20:49 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 02:00 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-06 09:07 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 02:11 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-06 09:10 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 02:15 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2026-06-01 12:20 +0300
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-01 09:38 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 02:20 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 11:08 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 23:58 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-04 11:47 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-04 11:57 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-05 12:53 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-05 17:35 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-05 16:42 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-06 00:06 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-06 10:35 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 03:35 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-07 13:39 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-07 14:41 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-08 00:04 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 09:34 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-08 18:08 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 21:24 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-09 01:46 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 03:09 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 11:17 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-10 01:33 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-10 11:53 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-10 18:52 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-10 21:47 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 02:58 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-11 01:36 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 11:46 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 17:15 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 07:52 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 11:52 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-06-11 18:47 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 16:59 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 16:55 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-11 01:16 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 06:28 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 11:42 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 11:40 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 17:35 +0000
[OT] Percetion of the USA abroad (was: Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 09:06 +0100
Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 12:03 +0100
Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 17:44 +0000
Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-11 21:18 +0200
Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad (was: Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 17:40 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-10 19:22 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-10 21:48 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-11 00:57 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 06:27 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-09 18:28 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 02:54 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 01:27 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-09 10:57 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-06-07 08:00 -0700
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-07 16:35 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-07 23:48 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 00:53 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 08:26 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-08 23:06 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-08 00:11 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-09 17:42 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-06 10:39 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 03:44 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-05 23:55 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 09:40 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-07 02:47 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-07 13:58 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-07 20:40 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-07 23:39 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 23:00 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-08 04:36 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-08 02:30 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 09:19 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-08 23:53 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-08 14:23 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 02:28 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-10 02:40 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-10 19:17 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-11 00:56 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 06:24 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-08 18:08 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-08 22:42 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 00:45 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-09 01:44 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 03:08 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-09 11:07 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-10 01:03 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-10 10:43 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-10 10:52 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-11 00:33 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 06:03 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-11 02:42 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-11 17:26 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-11 11:31 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-10 03:16 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 09:54 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Eric Pozharski <apple.universe@posteo.net> - 2026-06-08 21:46 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 04:50 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 03:16 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 08:49 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 01:48 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-09 11:11 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-10 01:32 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-10 05:38 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-10 10:49 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-10 11:08 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-11 00:31 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-11 03:31 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-11 04:36 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 08:37 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-11 19:02 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-10 02:54 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-08 14:12 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-08 18:08 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-09 01:30 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-09 11:15 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-07 14:30 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 23:38 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 09:22 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-09 00:28 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 04:03 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-06 18:42 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-06 08:53 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 01:53 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-06 08:52 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 01:41 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-06 06:41 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-06 03:07 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-06 13:28 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-06 19:16 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 05:18 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-07 18:59 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 09:40 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-07 02:51 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 04:56 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 16:43 +0800
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 08:48 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-05-31 10:16 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 10:22 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-06 06:38 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-06 03:04 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-06 13:32 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 11:34 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-06 14:01 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-09 22:52 +0200
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-10 04:36 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-10 08:48 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-06 09:17 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 09:40 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-07 02:57 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-07 16:11 +0100
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-09 20:30 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-10 00:19 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-10 00:22 +0000
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 04:18 -0400
Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-07 01:33 -0400
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 11:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <110e3ad$1cf90$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87838 |
On 11/06/2026 06:16, c186282 wrote: > On 6/10/26 16:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 10/06/2026 17:52, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> From afar, it seems that the whole American nation have gone batshit >>>> crazy, from the Librals prophesying complete societal collapse from >>>> Trump, sonofabitch, to those believing in the second coming of >>>> Trump, son of God. >>>> >>>> He's just a very naughty boy. >>> >>> Read a stat today, only 1 in 10 Europeans think the Americans are >>> friends. >> >> Well the US state, anyway, >> >> Fundamentally the US would at least work towards its long term >> interest. Europe was a market as big as the USA and was worth protecting. >> >> Trump is simply too stupid to understand that. If he cant make a >> profit right now, he isn't interested. > > Note those Euros got to think of the USA as > "Uncle Money-Bags" for a LONG time. > > No wonder they're upset. > I think you are profoundly mistaken Europe sells more to the US than the US sells to Europe. That's not 'money bags' that's a supplier not making what his customers want. See John Deere etc. And then when you find that the imports can't be used without US permission, when you need then, you tend to dump the whole product lines. See F35. The USA simply thinks its more important than it is. It is welcome to boycott European products and welsh on its commitments to Europe, but it can't expect to maintain its exports or 'frendship' under such conditions. Trump still hasn't got past the basic 'you fuck with me once, I won't do business with you again' style of business. The rest of the world is discovering how little they actually *need* the USA at all. Dump Microsoft. Install Linux. Dump Apple, buy Samsung. Dump John Deere, Buy Claas Dump Lockheed, buy Saab Dump US missiles, buy Ukrainian drones. Dump Intel, buy Arm. Dump Boeing, buy Airbus or Embraer. Europe bought American because it was ok and cheap and the bribes were good. Now its none of the above. I mean even MAGA doesn't make sense. Make America Great Again. Great, compared with what? North Korea? You can't have isolationism and then compare yourself with the rest of a world you just said you don't care about. And have cut yourself off from. United capitalist corporate republic of America. Behind a firewall. *shrug*. No one cares any more.. -- I would rather have questions that cannot be answered... ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned Richard Feynman
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 17:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n909vgFca6vU6@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87858 |
On Thu, 11 Jun 2026 11:40:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > You can't have isolationism and then compare yourself with the rest of a > world you just said you don't care about. And have cut yourself off > from. The US could have been an autarky and maintained neutral relations with the rest of the world, trading for coffee, tea, and other goods that aren't feasible. We even have plenty of rare earths, but it was cheaper to buy from Alibaba. The Constitution was written by wealthy merchants and lawyers and that's the class that has always ruled. That is crystal clear when that idiot dismissed all concerns by saying 'but the Dow broke 10,000' and the other idiot said 'I love inflation'. Sadly the alternative is a bunch of woke assholes.
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 09:06 +0100 |
| Subject | [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad (was: Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines) |
| Message-ID | <110dqav$19h5s$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87810 |
On 2026-06-10, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-06-10 12:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 10/06/2026 06:33, c186282 wrote: >>> On 6/9/26 06:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>> On 09/06/2026 08:09, c186282 wrote: >>>>> On 6/8/26 21:46, rbowman wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 18:08:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I thought it was Netanyahu that bought him. >>>>>>> Oh well, same day, different war... >>>>>> >>>>>> Bibi's shabbas goy is getting uppity these days and thinks he can tell >>>>>> Bibi what to do. Interesting days ahead. >>>>> >>>>> Wow ... TDS even here ......... >>>>> >>>> It's everywhere. Mostly in the White House. >>> >>> Tisk ! >>> >> From afar, it seems that the whole American nation have gone >> batshit crazy, from the Librals prophesying complete societal >> collapse from Trump, sonofabitch, to those believing in the second >> coming of Trump, son of God. >> >> He's just a very naughty boy. > > Read a stat today, only 1 in 10 Europeans think the Americans are friends. If one takes "American" to mean "from the USA", it's not hard to imagine that. Besides what was already a not so stellar reputation, we now have that nation repeatedly threatening to invade and annex parts of Denmark. And, at the same time the USA takes strategic advantage of Washington Treaty allied military installations in Europe for their middle east warfare - at the very least they've been using FAP Air Base no. 4 - they claim their allies "aren't helping" in the war. (But what war, you may ask, given that reportedly there is no war going on, according to a US citizen called [reads notes] Donald John Trump.) This besides [gestures] everything else the US administration has been doing. Of course it isn't fair to extend judgement of the US administration to all the US residents and citizens. Just like it wouldn't be fair to extend any dissatisfaction with Japan to anybody of japanese heritage in the USA after Pearl Harbor. -- Nuno Silva
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 12:03 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad |
| Message-ID | <110e4md$1cf90$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87852 |
On 11/06/2026 09:06, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2026-06-10, Carlos E.R. wrote: > >> On 2026-06-10 12:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 10/06/2026 06:33, c186282 wrote: >>>> On 6/9/26 06:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>> On 09/06/2026 08:09, c186282 wrote: >>>>>> On 6/8/26 21:46, rbowman wrote: >>>>>>> On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 18:08:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I thought it was Netanyahu that bought him. >>>>>>>> Oh well, same day, different war... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bibi's shabbas goy is getting uppity these days and thinks he can tell >>>>>>> Bibi what to do. Interesting days ahead. >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow ... TDS even here ......... >>>>>> >>>>> It's everywhere. Mostly in the White House. >>>> >>>> Tisk ! >>>> >>> From afar, it seems that the whole American nation have gone >>> batshit crazy, from the Librals prophesying complete societal >>> collapse from Trump, sonofabitch, to those believing in the second >>> coming of Trump, son of God. >>> >>> He's just a very naughty boy. >> >> Read a stat today, only 1 in 10 Europeans think the Americans are friends. > > If one takes "American" to mean "from the USA", it's not hard to imagine > that. > > Besides what was already a not so stellar reputation, we now have that > nation repeatedly threatening to invade and annex parts of Denmark. > And Canada. Don't forget Canada. > And, at the same time the USA takes strategic advantage of Washington > Treaty allied military installations in Europe for their middle east > warfare - at the very least they've been using FAP Air Base no. 4 - they > claim their allies "aren't helping" in the war. (But what war, you may > ask, given that reportedly there is no war going on, according to a US > citizen called [reads notes] Donald John Trump.) > I hear the tankers taking off to refuel US military jets on their way to the middle East every other day. And the odd US fighter-bomber. I had to laugh. US welshed on its commitment to Ukraine, attacked Iran and then expected NATO to help it wipe its bottom after shitting all over Hormuz. Payback for Suez. > This besides [gestures] everything else the US administration has been > doing. > > Of course it isn't fair to extend judgement of the US administration to > all the US residents and citizens. Just like it wouldn't be fair to > extend any dissatisfaction with Japan to anybody of japanese heritage in > the USA after Pearl Harbor. > Only those ones who are still glorifying a narcissistic idiot. As I have repeatedly said, the American Librals deserved Trump. But for real Republicans to carry on supporting him is unforgivable. Even Marjorie 'Traitor' Green has ditched him. We have all had our fun. Watching the USA tear itself apart. -- "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding". Marshall McLuhan
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 17:44 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad |
| Message-ID | <n90afbFca6vU8@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87862 |
On Thu, 11 Jun 2026 12:03:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > I had to laugh. US welshed on its commitment to Ukraine, attacked Iran > and then expected NATO to help it wipe its bottom after shitting all > over Hormuz. > > Payback for Suez. Are you still hurting over when Eisenhower told Britain, France, and Israel to back off? That's the last time the US had a harsh word for Israel.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 21:18 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad |
| Message-ID | <a9erfmx8vc.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87872 |
On 2026-06-11 19:44, rbowman wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2026 12:03:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > >> I had to laugh. US welshed on its commitment to Ukraine, attacked Iran >> and then expected NATO to help it wipe its bottom after shitting all >> over Hormuz. >> >> Payback for Suez. > > Are you still hurting over when Eisenhower told Britain, France, and > Israel to back off? That's the last time the US had a harsh word for > Israel. Way before my time. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 17:40 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Percetion of the USA abroad (was: Re: The boring Linux habit that saves machines) |
| Message-ID | <n90a7uFca6vU7@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87852 |
On Thu, 11 Jun 2026 09:06:55 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote: > Besides what was already a not so stellar reputation, we now have that > nation repeatedly threatening to invade and annex parts of Denmark. While I fully understand Danish pride passing off their problem child island to someone else wouldn't be all that bad.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-10 19:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n8trrjF104sU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87778 |
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 01:33:52 -0400, c186282 wrote: > On 6/9/26 06:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 09/06/2026 08:09, c186282 wrote: >>> On 6/8/26 21:46, rbowman wrote: >>>> On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 18:08:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>> >>>>> I thought it was Netanyahu that bought him. >>>>> Oh well, same day, different war... >>>> >>>> Bibi's shabbas goy is getting uppity these days and thinks he can >>>> tell Bibi what to do. Interesting days ahead. >>> >>> Wow ... TDS even here ......... >>> >> It's everywhere. Mostly in the White House. > > Tisk ! https://www.cnbc.com/2026/06/10/trump-inflation-cpi-iran-oil.html "Trump says ‘I love the inflation’ after consumer price index hits 3-year high"
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-10 21:48 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <110ciii$10v56$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87814 |
On 10/06/2026 20:22, rbowman wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 01:33:52 -0400, c186282 wrote: > >> On 6/9/26 06:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 09/06/2026 08:09, c186282 wrote: >>>> On 6/8/26 21:46, rbowman wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 18:08:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I thought it was Netanyahu that bought him. >>>>>> Oh well, same day, different war... >>>>> >>>>> Bibi's shabbas goy is getting uppity these days and thinks he can >>>>> tell Bibi what to do. Interesting days ahead. >>>> >>>> Wow ... TDS even here ......... >>>> >>> It's everywhere. Mostly in the White House. >> >> Tisk ! > > https://www.cnbc.com/2026/06/10/trump-inflation-cpi-iran-oil.html > > "Trump says ‘I love the inflation’ after consumer price index hits 3-year > high" > Big Beautiful Inflation... -- “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de M. de Voltaire
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 00:57 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <I-GcnYY-B93I3bf3nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87814 |
On 6/10/26 15:22, rbowman wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 01:33:52 -0400, c186282 wrote: > >> On 6/9/26 06:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 09/06/2026 08:09, c186282 wrote: >>>> On 6/8/26 21:46, rbowman wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 18:08:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I thought it was Netanyahu that bought him. >>>>>> Oh well, same day, different war... >>>>> >>>>> Bibi's shabbas goy is getting uppity these days and thinks he can >>>>> tell Bibi what to do. Interesting days ahead. >>>> >>>> Wow ... TDS even here ......... >>>> >>> It's everywhere. Mostly in the White House. >> >> Tisk ! > > https://www.cnbc.com/2026/06/10/trump-inflation-cpi-iran-oil.html > > "Trump says ‘I love the inflation’ after consumer price index hits 3-year > high" Hey, he's a SALESMAN ! :-) Mostly we don't buy it, of course ... but at the same time we DO want Iran reduced to 4th world.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-11 06:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n8v2qrF6v90U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87834 |
On Thu, 11 Jun 2026 00:57:48 -0400, c186282 wrote: > Hey, he's a SALESMAN ! > > Mostly we don't buy it, of course ... but at the same time we DO want > Iran reduced to 4th world. Is that 'we' a mouse in your pocket? The US has been fucking with Iran since '53. Personally I'd rather deal with Iran than any of the various Semitic tribes in the neighborhood.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-09 18:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n8r4adFbsbqU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87727 |
On Tue, 9 Jun 2026 03:09:27 -0400, c186282 wrote: > On 6/8/26 21:46, rbowman wrote: >> On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 18:08:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> >>> I thought it was Netanyahu that bought him. >>> Oh well, same day, different war... >> >> Bibi's shabbas goy is getting uppity these days and thinks he can tell >> Bibi what to do. Interesting days ahead. > > Wow ... TDS even here ......... No, but I didn't drink the Kool-Aid either.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-09 02:54 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <zOCcnVdzd4hRJbr3nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87701 |
On 6/8/26 14:08, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > On 2026-06-08, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> "If you want the root passwords, they are all written down on post-it >> notes behind the receptionist. If you want to bypass the firewall, just >> use one of the direct dial in modems the employees use on their PCs to >> enable them to work from home" > > The movie "War Games" dealt with these things. Although it had > technical holes you could drive a truck through, the protagonist > pulling out a desk's writing leaf to reveal a sheet of passwords > was good for a laugh, and the most realistic part of the movie. > > I wouldn't have minded having his 9600-bps acoustic coupler, though. HAVE one ! :-) Though it's more reliable at 2400. Gotta dig into The Heap more often. Have an Apple-II, with its DOS - but haven't fired up the thing since forever. The floppy may have gone bad by now alas. Now WHERE is my ZX-81 ??? >> At some stage someone is going to realise also, that rather than a 4GW >> nuclear plant driving a $10 billion AI data centres, it might actually >> be cheaper to employ a human. > > Yes, but not nearly as much fun. Besides, what would the little people > do with all that electricity? Cook meals? > >> The Russians already did that when they bought Donald Trump... > > I thought it was Netanyahu that bought him. > Oh well, same day, different war... Ignore the Vast Konspiracy Theorists. Didja know that reptillian space aliens are BREEDING with hot co-ed girls ? :-)
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-09 01:27 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <zOCcnVtzd4jOObr3nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87691 |
On 6/8/26 04:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 08/06/2026 05:04, c186282 wrote: >> On 6/7/26 09:41, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > >> >>>> The REAL MATH defining such things ... it's WAY WAY above MY level >>>> alas. Gotta rely on the 'experts'. Some of this shit is really up >>>> into the proverbial aether. >>> >>> It is not above my level. >> >> Well, good. We need math geniuses. >> >> Note that almost no one are math geniuses. >> > But Richard in fact IS. And he has spent his life immersed in these > concepts. As said, VERY GOOD. We NEED a few like him. SOME programming stuff really does hinge on VERY complex math - encryption especially. >>> You’re not going to brute-force AES-128. Do the maths. >> >> It's not so much "brute force" ... it's inherent >> little flaws in the algo - according to my sources. >> Reduces the need for "brute". >> > Well maybe. Arguably Enigma wasn't 'brute forced' either.. STRICTLY, no. Bad comm officers were the ultimate key to Enigma. It provided the extra needed to kind of zoom in on the problem. "Pure", kind of random, attack methods hadn't yielded much until then. >> But, so far, no "easy" cracks - just such 'time savers'. >> AES and related should be "good enough" for at least five >> more years. >> >> But, AFTER that, how much of YOUR important info will be >> in accessible AES-encrypted archive files somewhere ? >> Do they change all your banking/ID/investment numbers >> every year ? It's that "data tail" that worries me. >> Being "old" nobody will guard it so well. >> > > I cannot recall anyone ever 'cracking' any password or encryption I have > used personally YOUR stuff, PERSONALLY ... But what about yer bank, yer govt, your 'welfare' institution ??? MIGHT still have all those old recs in DES or similar ..... It's armor - but with your butt exposed. > Most hacks are way simpler. > > "If you want the root passwords, they are all written down on post-it > notes behind the receptionist. If you want to bypass the firewall, just > use one of the direct dial in modems the employees use on their PCs to > enable them to work from home" "Human Factors" are the MOST vulnerable. Plenty of IDIOT humans in the mix too. TRIED to sensitize them ... with FAIR success. Kinda trained them to "smell a rat" and then they'd bounce it to me ... and I'd dissect/research. IF I found some bad stuff I'd send them a congrats - and a two or three para simple description of WHY it was bad. No lecturing, nothing esp abstract. This seemed to work best. > At some stage someone is going to realise also, that rather than a 4GW > nuclear plant driving a $10 billion AI data centres, it might actually > be cheaper to employ a human. True - but don't tell 'em that right NOW :-) > The Russians already did that when they bought Donald Trump... Sorry, Vlad doesn't own Donald. Don't mistake 'diplomatic language' for actual deception and such. Trump WILL flatter Vlad, right up until some recruited agent sticks a knife in Vlad's back. This is how it's DONE. Ah, 'human factors' ... one of my favorite cases was when a sec got an invoice for a large amount of concrete. We DID use concrete - but got it from a dusty place a few miles up the road. The bill was into five figures. Fortunately our place was just small enough so one person could shout down the hall "Do we remember buying a whole bunch of concrete last month ???" The alleged supplier was in AUSTRALIA - a legit mining-supply company. We were USA. If you wanted giant drills and ore carts on tracks, they were yer go-to. Found the LINK was to a blank page on their web site that just bounced you back to their main page so it'd look legit. Evil people may have PUT it there, but it was probably just a link they FOUND by poking around, a 'placeholder' page. The actual dest for payment ... SEEMED to be eastern Europe, likely Romania, as best I could tell. All this took me a couple of HOURS. Wrote it up as simple and concise as possible, mentioned the 'clues'. The employee was happy she spotted this, good psych reinforcement, got mentioned at the next weekly dept meeting so other would become more wise. SOME places PUNISH employees that screw up on things like this. Sorry, 99.999% of the pop could NOT do the kind of research I did - involving deep reading of HTML+ files looking for Evil. Punish employees for stuff well above their pay grade and they just WON'T REPORT such stuff any more. Management/IT becomes The Enemy. Bounce them and then you have to Start Over with a new, naive, worker. No net improvement. Of course management can ALWAYS blame it on that low-wage worker .... that's how biz politics works. Disgusting ! "THEY did it ! We FIRED them ! We're clean now !!!". Things started drifting more towards "disgusting" my last year. Put in my notice. NOT unhappy about that.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-09 10:57 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <651lfmxelh.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87719 |
On 2026-06-09 07:27, c186282 wrote: > On 6/8/26 04:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 08/06/2026 05:04, c186282 wrote: >>> On 6/7/26 09:41, Richard Kettlewell wrote: ... >> At some stage someone is going to realise also, that rather than a 4GW >> nuclear plant driving a $10 billion AI data centres, it might actually >> be cheaper to employ a human. > > True - but don't tell 'em that right NOW :-) > >> The Russians already did that when they bought Donald Trump... > > Sorry, Vlad doesn't own Donald. Don't mistake 'diplomatic > language' for actual deception and such. Trump WILL flatter > Vlad, right up until some recruited agent sticks a knife in > Vlad's back. This is how it's DONE. > > Ah, 'human factors' ... one of my favorite cases was when > a sec got an invoice for a large amount of concrete. We > DID use concrete - but got it from a dusty place a few > miles up the road. The bill was into five figures. > > Fortunately our place was just small enough so one person > could shout down the hall "Do we remember buying a whole > bunch of concrete last month ???" > > The alleged supplier was in AUSTRALIA - a legit mining-supply > company. We were USA. If you wanted giant drills and ore carts > on tracks, they were yer go-to. > > Found the LINK was to a blank page on their web site that > just bounced you back to their main page so it'd look legit. > Evil people may have PUT it there, but it was probably just > a link they FOUND by poking around, a 'placeholder' page. > > The actual dest for payment ... SEEMED to be eastern Europe, > likely Romania, as best I could tell. All this took me a > couple of HOURS. > > Wrote it up as simple and concise as possible, mentioned > the 'clues'. The employee was happy she spotted this, good > psych reinforcement, got mentioned at the next weekly > dept meeting so other would become more wise. > > SOME places PUNISH employees that screw up on things like > this. Sorry, 99.999% of the pop could NOT do the kind of > research I did - involving deep reading of HTML+ files > looking for Evil. Punish employees for stuff well above > their pay grade and they just WON'T REPORT such stuff > any more. Management/IT becomes The Enemy. Bounce them and > then you have to Start Over with a new, naive, worker. > No net improvement. Very sensible what you did. > > Of course management can ALWAYS blame it on that low-wage > worker .... that's how biz politics works. Disgusting ! > "THEY did it ! We FIRED them ! We're clean now !!!". > > Things started drifting more towards "disgusting" my last > year. Put in my notice. NOT unhappy about that. > -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-07 08:00 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <110411h$2inpo$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87633 |
On 2026-06-07 00:35, c186282 wrote: > On 6/6/26 05:35, Richard Kettlewell wrote: [snip] >> Second, AES is not expected to be meaningfully impacted by quantum >> computers; the same applies to other symmetric algorithms. The running >> time of a Grover’s algorithm attack on AES-256 is 2^128 operations, >> which is far beyond the possible. AES-128 initially looks more plausible >> at 2^64 operations, but (unlike typical classical attacks) these >> operations cannot be parallelized: we’d be looking at a runtime of at >> least hundreds of years, even with rather optimistic assumptions about >> how fast a quantum computer could run. > > I've run into many good articles saying AES and closely > related CAN be cracked, kinda quickly, using quantum > methods. This may be a matter of how much we trust our > various sources. > > The REAL MATH defining such things ... it's WAY WAY above > MY level alas. Gotta rely on the 'experts'. Some of this > shit is really up into the proverbial aether. > >> The algorithms that are expected to be broken by quantum computers are >> asymmetric algorithms: RSA, (EC)DH, (EC)DSA, (EC)MQV, EdDSA, KCDSA, GOST >> 34.10, SM2, etc. > > Alas asymmetric/shared algos are used for 95% of what > is put online. Not the most encouraging thing ... > >> With all that in mind, a popular option is indeed to combine one of >> these classical algorithms with a comparable post-quantum algorithm. >> For example >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-kem/ >> defines compositions of ML-KEM and a classical algorithm, e.g. ECDH. > > Look, it's not time to PANIC ... not YET anyway. For five > or ten years what we're using WILL still be good. > > But it won't last FOREVER. > > We kind of need to KNOW when weaknesses are adding up so > we can SHIFT to new methods. This sort of info can be found, > but you have to LOOK a lot. In some cases you need to be the > 0.001% math whiz to even understand such warnings. > > Existing algos can be attacked mathematically, but "AI" > brute-force/unhuman techniques are also possible problems. > > USED to use AES-128 for everything, it's GOOD and FASTER, but > the past five years or so ... AES-256. Five years from NOW ??? > >> This is not really ‘double encryption’: rather it combines the output of >> ML-KEM with the output of a classical key agreement mechanism (rephrased >> as a KEM) using a PRF, and then uses that to derive symmetric session >> keys (typically AES) for message encryption (which is how we already do >> asymmetric confidentiality in TLS, ECIES, etc). > > Now you're getting beyond me. I have a weird kind > of math-blindness - need a calc to do checking accts > but do kinda grasp some of the 'bigger' paradigms in > the abstract. Very odd. Oh well, what is, is. > > Almost NOBODY is a general "math genius". Alas that > INCLUDES govt and bankers and CEOs and such. > > Any way to encapsulate this for non math geniuses ??? > A 'practical' analysis ??? [snip] I think what you say you "don't get" is this: For almost all file encryption, we use symmetric encryption: The same key is used for encrypting and decrypting. These are DES, AES etc. Richard says these are not in themselves susceptible to quantum attacks, but do require longer keys as attackers get faster computers. But we love to authenticate our communication partners, and for this we use asymmetric protocols, such as public/private key protocols. And then we use these asymmetric handshakes to exchange keys that are then used for the symmetric protocols. Many/most of these asymmetric protocols are vulnerable to quantum breakage. And if you break into the key exchange, you can then decode the stuff that was encoded with the symmetric algorithm - no need to break the encryption. Richard, did I get that right? -- Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-07 16:35 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwvfr2y4b3h.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #87651 |
Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> writes: > I think what you say you "don't get" is this: > > For almost all file encryption, we use symmetric encryption: The same > key is used for encrypting and decrypting. These are DES, AES etc. > Richard says these are not in themselves susceptible to quantum > attacks, but do require longer keys as attackers get faster computers. > > But we love to authenticate our communication partners, and for this > we use asymmetric protocols, such as public/private key protocols. > And then we use these asymmetric handshakes to exchange keys that are > then used for the symmetric protocols. Many/most of these asymmetric > protocols are vulnerable to quantum breakage. And if you break into > the key exchange, you can then decode the stuff that was encoded with > the symmetric algorithm - no need to break the encryption. > > Richard, did I get that right? Near enough, for sure. (Asymmetric authentication and asymmetric confidentiality are logically separate concepts, and use different algorithms, although often ones that are to a greater or lesser extent related to one another. But in many situations if you need asymmetric confidentiality then you need asymmetric authentication as well.) -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-07 23:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1104vvp$2rlf4$8@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87651 |
On Sun, 7 Jun 2026 08:00:01 -0700, Lars Poulsen wrote: > For almost all file encryption, we use symmetric encryption: The > same key is used for encrypting and decrypting. These are DES, AES > etc. I hate the use of “symmetric” for this usage. I originally learned that “symmetric” applied to schemes where the encryption and decryption algorithms were one and the same. The main example is XOR-based encryption: apply XOR with a key once to encrypt, apply it again with the same key to decrypt. The one where the two algorithms are different, but share a common key, is called “secret-key” encryption. A “secret” is not something that you must never tell anyone: instead, it is something that should only be disclosed to trusted partners (like the peer you’re communicating with). Otherwise you couldn’t have concepts such as “shared-secret authentication”, could you? > But we love to authenticate our communication partners, and for this > we use asymmetric protocols, such as public/private key protocols. > And then we use these asymmetric handshakes to exchange keys that > are then used for the symmetric protocols. You know why? Why not use the public/private key protocols directly, for the entire communication? It’s because they’re about a thousand times slower than secret-key protocols, that’s why. Just not practical for high-volume use. > Many/most of these asymmetric protocols are vulnerable to quantum > breakage. And if you break into the key exchange, you can then > decode the stuff that was encoded with the symmetric algorithm - no > need to break the encryption. But the key exchange uses a separate protocol, e.g. the one known as “Diffie-Hellman”. Cracking of those is an entirely separate matter from cracking private/public key encryption itself. Has any “quantum” weakness been demonstrated in Diffie-Hellman? Not that I’ve heard of.
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-08 00:53 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11050ah$2rflv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87664 |
On 2026-06-08, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sun, 7 Jun 2026 08:00:01 -0700, Lars Poulsen wrote: > >> For almost all file encryption, we use symmetric encryption: The >> same key is used for encrypting and decrypting. These are DES, AES >> etc. > > I hate the use of “symmetric” for this usage. I originally learned > that “symmetric” applied to schemes where the encryption and > decryption algorithms were one and the same. The main example is > XOR-based encryption: apply XOR with a key once to encrypt, apply it > again with the same key to decrypt. > > The one where the two algorithms are different, but share a common > key, is called “secret-key” encryption. A “secret” is not something > that you must never tell anyone: instead, it is something that should > only be disclosed to trusted partners (like the peer you’re > communicating with). Otherwise you couldn’t have concepts such as > “shared-secret authentication”, could you? This really goes counter what I've learned, symmetric and asymmetric applying to whether the secret is shared or not. If I'm understanding correctly, by your definition, RSA would be symmetric? -- Nuno Silva
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-08 08:26 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwvtsrdv6ft.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #87664 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes: > Lars Poulsen wrote: > >> For almost all file encryption, we use symmetric encryption: The >> same key is used for encrypting and decrypting. These are DES, AES >> etc. > > I hate the use of “symmetric” for this usage. The usage is completely standard, you’ll have to get used to it. >> Many/most of these asymmetric protocols are vulnerable to quantum >> breakage. And if you break into the key exchange, you can then >> decode the stuff that was encoded with the symmetric algorithm - no >> need to break the encryption. > > But the key exchange uses a separate protocol, e.g. the one known as > “Diffie-Hellman”. Cracking of those is an entirely separate matter > from cracking private/public key encryption itself. Has any “quantum” > weakness been demonstrated in Diffie-Hellman? Not that I’ve heard of. Yes, Diffie-Hellman is vulnerable to a quantum computer. -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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