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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #57994 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2024-08-17 22:01 -0400 |
| Last post | 2024-08-19 21:36 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 31 — 14 participants |
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Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-08-17 22:01 -0400
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-08-18 02:24 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-08-17 23:07 -0400
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> - 2024-08-26 13:29 -0600
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Woozy Song <suzyw0ng@outlook.com> - 2024-08-21 19:25 +0800
Ancient Linux (was: Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-08-21 12:37 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-08-18 03:45 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-08-18 00:52 -0400
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> - 2024-08-18 08:27 -0700
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-08-19 23:59 -0400
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-08-20 04:39 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> - 2024-08-20 07:47 -0700
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-08-20 18:28 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-08-20 19:27 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-08-21 07:35 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-08-20 19:16 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-08-21 07:34 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-08-19 02:01 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-08-19 20:59 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-08-19 21:34 -0400
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-08-21 07:32 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-08-18 17:26 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2024-08-19 11:25 -0400
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers John McCue <jmccue@magnetar.jmcunx.com> - 2024-08-18 19:54 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-08-19 02:02 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers John McCue <jmccue@reddwf.jmcunx.com> - 2024-08-19 14:45 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-08-19 09:39 +0100
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2024-08-19 20:09 +0100
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-08-19 20:56 +0000
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-08-19 21:43 -0400
Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-08-19 21:36 -0400
Page 1 of 2 [1] 2 Next page →
| From | "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-17 22:01 -0400 |
| Subject | Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers |
| Message-ID | <kcOcnV96BcJ0yFz7nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker-reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy administration' and terrible management are the reasons for poor customer service at the IRS, an insider has claimed. An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than a decade, has spoken exclusively to DailyMail.com about its failings, as it comes under fire for long call wait times. The staffer, who has worked on the customer service and IT teams, said that managers pursued 'vanity projects' instead of making changes which would benefit workers and taxpayers. . . . Doesn't surprise me. Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ? IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers. Of interest here is that such old tech DOES still WORK. Most of this stuff was still discrete transistors in BIG boxes. Yea, yea, the modern stuff is 1000s of times faster and more compact. I think a Raspberry Pi credit-card computer is a lot faster and more capable. Modern stuff may not AS reliable however. However there's ANOTHER issue ... one guys I knew in the biz even yet come across. It's the SOFTWARE. A lot of it was written in COBOL by those arrow-tie Dilberts LONG ago. It's GREAT software - those square- lookin' nerd guys were REALLY GOOD. But good software requires good MONEY ... and a lot of biz/govt entities can't afford having the good old standards re-created for modern hardware. Can barely afford (or find) people who can do little patches on what is. So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that 60 year old hardware and software. It works, so LEAVE IT ALONE. Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when I was still pretty young. The computer room was freezing and the floor was laser-leveled for the benefit of the old-style disk drive units (and I mean "units", you could physically remove a big spool of about 12" wide disks - DO wait until they stop spinning !). There were also the boxes with the spinning tapes and the obligatory card and paper-tape readers. The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in the middle of the room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of circuit boards with zillions of individual transistors and perhaps a few early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial terminals at their desks. Even then the machine was technically obsolete, early PCs were already starting to come out, but again they could not afford/dare to replace it. 50s/60s easy money had RUN OUT. BTW, if you're a COBOL guru you can make GOOD money these days maintaining all that old software ... it's in Big Govt all the way down to medium local biz.
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| From | vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-18 02:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <lid4aqFpdv6U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #57994 |
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net>
wrote in <kcOcnV96BcJ0yFz7nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker-
reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html
>
> Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy administration'
> and terrible management are the reasons for poor customer service at the
> IRS, an insider has claimed.
>
> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than a decade,
> has spoken exclusively to DailyMail.com about its failings, as it comes
> under fire for long call wait times.
>
> The staffer, who has worked on the customer service and IT teams, said
> that managers pursued 'vanity projects' instead of making changes which
> would benefit workers and taxpayers.
>
> . . .
>
> Doesn't surprise me.
>
> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The
> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.
>
> Of interest here is that such old tech DOES still WORK. Most of this
> stuff was still discrete transistors in BIG boxes.
>
> Yea, yea, the modern stuff is 1000s of times faster and more compact.
> I think a Raspberry Pi credit-card computer is a lot faster and more
> capable. Modern stuff may not AS reliable however.
>
> However there's ANOTHER issue ... one guys I knew in the biz even yet
> come across. It's the SOFTWARE.
>
> A lot of it was written in COBOL by those arrow-tie Dilberts LONG
> ago. It's GREAT software - those square-
> lookin' nerd guys were REALLY GOOD.
>
> But good software requires good MONEY ... and a lot of biz/govt
> entities can't afford having the good old standards re-created for
> modern hardware. Can barely afford (or find) people who can do little
> patches on what is.
>
> So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that 60 year old
> hardware and software. It works, so LEAVE IT ALONE.
>
> Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when I was still pretty
> young. The computer room was freezing and the floor was laser-leveled
> for the benefit of the old-style disk drive units (and I mean
> "units", you could physically remove a big spool of about 12" wide
> disks - DO wait until they stop spinning !). There were also the
> boxes with the spinning tapes and the obligatory card and paper-tape
> readers.
>
> The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in the middle of the
> room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of circuit
> boards with zillions of individual transistors and perhaps a few
> early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial terminals at their
> desks.
>
> Even then the machine was technically obsolete,
> early PCs were already starting to come out, but again they could not
> afford/dare to replace it. 50s/60s easy money had RUN OUT.
>
> BTW, if you're a COBOL guru you can make GOOD money these days
> maintaining all that old software ... it's in Big Govt all the way
> down to medium local biz.
If you're so inclined to learn on your own...GNU has COBOL.
COBC(1) User Commands COBC(1)
NAME
cobc - manual page for cobc 3.1.2.0
SYNOPSIS
cobc [options]... file...
DESCRIPTION
GnuCOBOL compiler for most COBOL dialects with lots of
extensions
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Our local community college used to have a COBOL class, as it led
a software consortium that ran COBOL software on mainframes. Looks
like they retired those old systems in 2009.
--
-v
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| From | "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-17 23:07 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <Df-cnZPF3Pr5-Fz7nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #57995 |
On 8/17/24 10:24 PM, vallor wrote: > On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> > wrote in <kcOcnV96BcJ0yFz7nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@earthlink.com>: > >> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker- > reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html >> >> Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy administration' >> and terrible management are the reasons for poor customer service at the >> IRS, an insider has claimed. >> >> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than a decade, >> has spoken exclusively to DailyMail.com about its failings, as it comes >> under fire for long call wait times. >> >> The staffer, who has worked on the customer service and IT teams, said >> that managers pursued 'vanity projects' instead of making changes which >> would benefit workers and taxpayers. >> >> . . . >> >> Doesn't surprise me. >> >> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ? >> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The >> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers. >> >> Of interest here is that such old tech DOES still WORK. Most of this >> stuff was still discrete transistors in BIG boxes. >> >> Yea, yea, the modern stuff is 1000s of times faster and more compact. >> I think a Raspberry Pi credit-card computer is a lot faster and more >> capable. Modern stuff may not AS reliable however. >> >> However there's ANOTHER issue ... one guys I knew in the biz even yet >> come across. It's the SOFTWARE. >> >> A lot of it was written in COBOL by those arrow-tie Dilberts LONG >> ago. It's GREAT software - those square- >> lookin' nerd guys were REALLY GOOD. >> >> But good software requires good MONEY ... and a lot of biz/govt >> entities can't afford having the good old standards re-created for >> modern hardware. Can barely afford (or find) people who can do little >> patches on what is. >> >> So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that 60 year old >> hardware and software. It works, so LEAVE IT ALONE. >> >> Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when I was still pretty >> young. The computer room was freezing and the floor was laser-leveled >> for the benefit of the old-style disk drive units (and I mean >> "units", you could physically remove a big spool of about 12" wide >> disks - DO wait until they stop spinning !). There were also the >> boxes with the spinning tapes and the obligatory card and paper-tape >> readers. >> >> The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in the middle of the >> room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of circuit >> boards with zillions of individual transistors and perhaps a few >> early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial terminals at their >> desks. >> >> Even then the machine was technically obsolete, >> early PCs were already starting to come out, but again they could not >> afford/dare to replace it. 50s/60s easy money had RUN OUT. >> >> BTW, if you're a COBOL guru you can make GOOD money these days >> maintaining all that old software ... it's in Big Govt all the way >> down to medium local biz. > > If you're so inclined to learn on your own...GNU has COBOL. > > COBC(1) User Commands COBC(1) > > NAME > cobc - manual page for cobc 3.1.2.0 > > SYNOPSIS > cobc [options]... file... > > DESCRIPTION > GnuCOBOL compiler for most COBOL dialects with lots of > extensions > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > Our local community college used to have a COBOL class, as it led > a software consortium that ran COBOL software on mainframes. Looks > like they retired those old systems in 2009. I'm gonna be heretical and say GNU isn't Real COBOL ... it's just a 'C' translator. There ARE some native COBOL compilers, even a sort of IDE, out there however. If you're gonna do Old Systems then you HAVE to be able to set the compiler to respect the OLD standards ... various kinds of fields/instructions/data start at SPECIFIC PLACES ... which corresponded with the old punch-cards. "Relaxed" more modern COBOL/FORTRAN ... great ... but that may NOT get you anywhere on an actual early 60s system. I just installed a new box (little BMax) and DID install the GNU COBOL and FORTRAN (and even 'D' and Modula-2 Just Because). Even a FORTH compiler ... like to have all bases covered :-) I'll skip ADA ... DID write some kinda complex-ish stuff for ADA with self-updating lists of linked lists of linked lists ... but the data TYPING is just TOO - had to write some 'cheat' translator functions. Too much ... software should not work hard AGAINST you .......
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| From | Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-26 13:29 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <VI4zO.601593$7Lh9.102098@fx12.iad> |
| In reply to | #57998 |
On 8/17/2024 9:07 PM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote: > On 8/17/24 10:24 PM, vallor wrote: >> <snip> >> If you're so inclined to learn on your own...GNU has COBOL. >> >> COBC(1) User Commands COBC(1) >> >> NAME >> cobc - manual page for cobc 3.1.2.0 >> >> SYNOPSIS >> cobc [options]... file... >> >> DESCRIPTION >> GnuCOBOL compiler for most COBOL dialects with lots of >> extensions >> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >> >> Our local community college used to have a COBOL class, as it led >> a software consortium that ran COBOL software on mainframes. Looks >> like they retired those old systems in 2009. > > I'm gonna be heretical and say GNU isn't Real COBOL ... it's > just a 'C' translator. There ARE some native COBOL compilers, > even a sort of IDE, out there however. > > If you're gonna do Old Systems then you HAVE to be able to set > the compiler to respect the OLD standards ... various kinds of > fields/instructions/data start at SPECIFIC PLACES ... which > corresponded with the old punch-cards. "Relaxed" more modern > COBOL/FORTRAN ... great ... but that may NOT get you anywhere > on an actual early 60s system. > > I just installed a new box (little BMax) and DID install the > GNU COBOL and FORTRAN (and even 'D' and Modula-2 Just Because). > Even a FORTH compiler ... like to have all bases covered :-) > > I'll skip ADA ... DID write some kinda complex-ish stuff for > ADA with self-updating lists of linked lists of linked lists ... > but the data TYPING is just TOO - had to write some 'cheat' > translator functions. Too much ... software should not > work hard AGAINST you ....... If I recall correctly, there was some discussion of a future version of GNU COBOL being more closely integrated with the GNU compiler ecosystem so it could generate object files without having to bother with intermediate C code. My guess is that if this does happen, the change might not be obvious to the user, who could carry on compiling programs as before. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if it acts like a COBOL compiler, it's a COBOL compiler, no matter what stages are involved. It's not as if other GNU compilers translate directly from source code to object code; there are a number of intermediate steps (if you compile a C program with -fdump-tree-all, you'll see them). Louis (group list trimmed)
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| From | Woozy Song <suzyw0ng@outlook.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-21 19:25 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <va4iri$3rfcv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57995 |
vallor wrote: >> >> Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when I was still pretty >> young. The computer room was freezing and the floor was laser-leveled >> for the benefit of the old-style disk drive units (and I mean >> "units", you could physically remove a big spool of about 12" wide >> disks - DO wait until they stop spinning !). There were also the >> boxes with the spinning tapes and the obligatory card and paper-tape >> readers. >> >> The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in the middle of the >> room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of circuit >> boards with zillions of individual transistors and perhaps a few >> early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial terminals at their >> desks. Yeah, I remember the university had that stuff in the 1970s, and also a "concentrator" that multiplexed 300-baud terminals into an ISDN line.
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| From | vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-21 12:37 +0000 |
| Subject | Ancient Linux (was: Re: Still Going - IRS Still Using JFK-Era Computers) |
| Message-ID | <lim5c8Fomf5U12@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #58109 |
On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 19:25:29 +0800, Woozy Song <suzyw0ng@outlook.com> wrote in <va4iri$3rfcv$1@dont-email.me>: > vallor wrote: I didn't write the following -- that was "186252". >>> >>> Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when I was still >>> pretty young. The computer room was freezing and the floor was >>> laser-leveled for the benefit of the old-style disk drive units >>> (and I mean "units", you could physically remove a big spool of >>> about 12" wide disks - DO wait until they stop spinning !). There >>> were also the boxes with the spinning tapes and the obligatory >>> card and paper-tape readers. >>> >>> The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in the middle of >>> the room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of >>> circuit boards with zillions of individual transistors and perhaps >>> a few early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial terminals at >>> their desks. > > Yeah, I remember the university had that stuff in the 1970s, and also a > "concentrator" that multiplexed 300-baud terminals into an ISDN line. No ISDN back then, you may be thinking of ADN. Our first Net connection at our campus, in 1991, was a 56K ADN, with half of an X.25 PAD dedicated to IP to CSUNet...so that was 28Kbit/s for a sizeable campus. (Over 20,000 students, most of them night school.) Didn't matter much at the time, because there was only one host with a TCP/IP stack, an HP9000 that ran the campus library card catalog. Took many months before lab coordinators would allow us to put TCP/IP on their lab machines. I was a student worker in Computing Services, so helped with getting the campus on the Net. I applied to the CIS department for a project, "Special Studies in Computer Science", and got 3 units setting up a student-access Linux host at the end of 1992. Students could have email, ftp, etc. System hardware was a spare Netware server, an HP Vectra RS/20 with 1MB, then later 16MB. Oh, those were the days... [ng's trimmed] -- -v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc4 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G "Useless Invention: Ejector seats for helicopters."
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-18 03:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <lid935FqfhiU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #57994 |
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote: > Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ? > IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The > article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers. Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/ big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/ A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future: "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system. Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on individual medical costs." System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in '65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot in '63.
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| From | "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-18 00:52 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <thmdnSB-k8SW41z7nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #58001 |
On 8/17/24 11:45 PM, rbowman wrote: > On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote: > >> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ? >> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The >> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers. > > Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it > would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors. Govt specs being what they are, it was PROBABLY tech at least 5-7 years out of date. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series The 7000 series were pretty GOOD computers, given the state of the tech. There WERE a few competitors however. As said, the article didn't specify. Anyhow, clearly JUST beyond the vac-tube era since those would be just TOO hard to maintain all this time. > https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/ > big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/ > > A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future: > > "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system. > Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull > human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is > getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might > tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could > reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on > individual medical costs." Visionary ... and back when they STILL understood all the DOWNSIDE. But note that DIDN'T HELP - what was "just easier" for govt/biz/banking CAME TO BE. And now Russians/Chinese have the keys to that whole kingdom. NOT good at all. And I do NOT know a good work-around. What, should I keep a briefcase full of bearer bonds in some obscure storage facility and just assume the owners don't rifle through the contents ??? Again, NOT good ! Frankly, I think The West is goin' DOWN - and right when I've gotten OLD. Hyper-suck ! > System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in > '65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot > in '63. Which is why I suspect the 7000s. BITS of 360 were to be had a bit earlier, but, as said, govt contracts spend years working up their specs. Once got a tour of a US attack sub. Their 'computer' STILL used the big old disk-drive units where you could remove entire spools of large disks ... early 60s tech in a boat built nearly two decades later. Again, the govt-spec/contract process ...
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| From | Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-18 08:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87frr1yhoq.fsf@comcast.net.invalid> |
| In reply to | #58001 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes: > On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote: > >> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ? >> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The >> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers. > > Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it > would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series > > https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/ > big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/ > > A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future: > > "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system. > Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull > human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is > getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might > tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could > reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on > individual medical costs." > > > System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in > '65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot > in '63. I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days! -Don-
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| From | "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-19 23:59 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <28CcnbtdDLAoiVn7nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #58016 |
On 8/18/24 11:27 AM, Don_from_AZ wrote: > rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes: > >> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote: >> >>> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ? >>> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The >>> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers. >> >> Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it >> would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/ >> big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/ >> >> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future: >> >> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system. >> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull >> human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is >> getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might >> tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could >> reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on >> individual medical costs." >> >> >> System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in >> '65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot >> in '63. > > I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN > class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the > cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I > remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be > oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days! HA ! Boy does THAT seem familiar !!! :-) Didn't hurt to bring gifts for the guys in charge of the 'bin' either ... they'd do your cards first. The gods in the freezing-cold room with all the real hardware ... you never got to talk to them.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-20 04:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <liil0hFktuaU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #58063 |
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 23:59:48 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote: > On 8/18/24 11:27 AM, Don_from_AZ wrote: >> I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN >> class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the >> cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I >> remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be >> oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days! > > > HA ! Boy does THAT seem familiar !!! :-) > > Didn't hurt to bring gifts for the guys in charge of the 'bin' either > ... they'd do your cards first. > > The gods in the freezing-cold room with all the real hardware ... you > never got to talk to them. The computer building was the only place at RPI that I remember having A/ C. It was new compared to everything else. Eventually the computers were moved to a chapel which is fitting in a 'A Canticle for Leibowitz' sort of way. https://archives.rpi.edu/institute-history/building-histories/chapel- voorhees-computing-center
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| From | Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-20 07:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <871q2jgsjt.fsf@comcast.net.invalid> |
| In reply to | #58066 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes: > On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 23:59:48 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote: > >> On 8/18/24 11:27 AM, Don_from_AZ wrote: >>> I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN >>> class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the >>> cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I >>> remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be >>> oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days! >> >> >> HA ! Boy does THAT seem familiar !!! :-) >> >> Didn't hurt to bring gifts for the guys in charge of the 'bin' either >> ... they'd do your cards first. >> >> The gods in the freezing-cold room with all the real hardware ... you >> never got to talk to them. > > The computer building was the only place at RPI that I remember having A/ > C. It was new compared to everything else. Eventually the computers were > moved to a chapel which is fitting in a 'A Canticle for Leibowitz' sort of > way. > > https://archives.rpi.edu/institute-history/building-histories/chapel- > voorhees-computing-center Maybe during the summer sessions air conditioning was useful, but most of the year in Troy what you needed was HEAT! For a couple of years I lived down on River St and had to walk up the hill past West Hall and clear to the other side of campus to work at the Freshman dining hall for breakfast at about 6 AM. One of the banks downtown had a time/temperature display, and I remember one week straight where it never got above -20F when I walked by. That's why I live in Arizona! -Don-
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-20 18:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <Bf5xO.87568$WT8.14015@fx45.iad> |
| In reply to | #58074 |
On 2024-08-20, Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> wrote: > Maybe during the summer sessions air conditioning was useful, but most > of the year in Troy what you needed was HEAT! For a couple of years I > lived down on River St and had to walk up the hill past West Hall and > clear to the other side of campus to work at the Freshman dining hall > for breakfast at about 6 AM. One of the banks downtown had a > time/temperature display, and I remember one week straight where it > never got above -20F when I walked by. > > That's why I live in Arizona! There's this myth - fortunately fading now - that the purpose of air conditioning is not to make a room comfortable, but to make it COLD. If you have to wear a thick sweater in August, the air conditioning is being overdone. Myths of operators storing beer under the false floor notwithstanding, there's no reason to keep the computer room uncomfortably cold. (I've never worked with cryogenic systems, but presumably they insulate the parts that have to be really cold and leave the rest of the room alone.) I used to get into "thermostat wars" in some shops. I would surreptitiously sneak the thermostat up to a comfortable level; the machine didn't mind as long as the temperature was reasonably cool and - most importantly - steady. The regular staff would discover the modified setting, have a fit, and turn it back down to its original arctic setting. At one PPOE we didn't even think we had a thermostat; the air conditioning always ran full bore, and we'd turn it off at the end of the day along with the computer. One Friday evening, the last person to leave (me) forgot to turn off the air conditioner. When we returned on Monday morning the room was so cold you could almost see your breath condensing. The oil in the disk drives' hydraulic actuators had congealed, and the heads wouldn't load. We had to let everything spin for a couple of hours until things warmed up enough to run. Eventually I did find the thermostat; it was in the crawl space under the machine room (and below the real floor under the false floor). It was turned all the way down. I set it to something sane, and life was good - or at least better. At another shop, the computer shared a tiny room with a huge air conditioner. Everything was turned off at the end of the day, and turned on again the next morning. The machine was quite flaky. One day a CE came in to look at it, and when he pulled one of the circuit boards, a VLSI chip fell out. The thermal cycling had caused it to walk right out of its socket. We started leaving everything on 24/7, and the machine ran reliably after that. It's not just computers that get thermal shock - witness the number of summertime colds that result from going back and forth between blazing hot weather outdoors and brutally air-conditioned buildings. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost- / \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-20 19:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <lik91pFs1hfU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #58077 |
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 18:28:49 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > I used to get into "thermostat wars" in some shops. I would > surreptitiously sneak the thermostat up to a comfortable level; the > machine didn't mind as long as the temperature was reasonably cool and - > most importantly - steady. The regular staff would discover the > modified setting, have a fit, and turn it back down to its original > arctic setting. I worked at a company that is in an old sugar beet factory. Like a lot of the repurposed mill buildings it is visually attractive, lots of exposed brick, high ceilings with wooden rafters, and mezzanines. It also has no insulation and is a nightmare to heat/cool. I think every HVAC company in town has taken a shot at setting up zone controls with limited success. Flannel shirts in August were typical at least for the people on the first floor. The poor suckers on the second floor trended toward shorts and t- shirts. Come winter and the tables turned. We'd be wearing short sleeve shirts and the guys upstairs were in parkas.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-21 07:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <va45bl$3pilf$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58079 |
On 20 Aug 2024 19:27:53 GMT, rbowman wrote: > Come winter and the tables turned. We'd be wearing short > sleeve shirts and the guys upstairs were in parkas. Seems like, all you needed were suitable gaps to let the cold air descend from the upper to the lower floor, and let physics take its course.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-20 19:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <lik8bkFs1hfU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #58074 |
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 07:47:18 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote: > Maybe during the summer sessions air conditioning was useful, but most > of the year in Troy what you needed was HEAT! For a couple of years I > lived down on River St and had to walk up the hill past West Hall and > clear to the other side of campus to work at the Freshman dining hall > for breakfast at about 6 AM. One of the banks downtown had a > time/temperature display, and I remember one week straight where it > never got above -20F when I walked by. Preach to the choir... I grew up in a small town outside of Troy and went to Troy High School. RPI was basically across the street so it was more of the same. My friends and I tended to hang out in the cafeteria in West Hole between classes. It was a joy climbing back up to Ricketts, Green, or wherever. I wonder if they still install those wooden risers on the stone stairs to try to prevent too many fatalities on ice covered granite? No wonder why hockey was the only sport that attracted much interest; ice was the natural state. When I was in high school my father and I visited Clarkson during the Christmas break. We didn't see dry pavement past Lake George. I noted the freshmen dorms were about a mile from campus and crossed Clarkson off the list full ride scholarship or no. Of course, being young and foolish, hiking up some Adirondack peak in the winter with the Outing Club was considered fun. Then we'd s[end quality time on the Playhouse fiberglassing the wreckage of the snowshoes. Yeah, Troy... The last time I was there was 2004 and it didn't improve over the years.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-21 07:34 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <va459a$3pilf$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58074 |
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 07:47:18 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote: > Maybe during the summer sessions air conditioning was useful, but most > of the year in Troy what you needed was HEAT! That’s why we have heat pumps: they work both ways.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-19 02:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <v9u90s$2n4th$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58001 |
On 18 Aug 2024 03:45:42 GMT, rbowman wrote: > A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future: > > "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system. > Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any > numbskull human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting > who is getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers > might tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations > could reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report > on individual medical costs." All routine nowadays. As is compliance with anti-money-laundering laws. Which are governed by international agreements. Also remember, the tax department (IRD or IRS or HMRC or SARS or whatever it’s called in your country) is only concerned with collecting the proper taxes. How you earn the money that incurs those taxes (even if through illegal enterprises) is not its concern.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-19 20:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <lihq0qFgjuvU8@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #58033 |
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 02:01:00 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On 18 Aug 2024 03:45:42 GMT, rbowman wrote: > >> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future: >> >> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system. >> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any >> numbskull human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting >> who is getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market >> computers might tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity >> organizations could reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers >> could report on individual medical costs." > > All routine nowadays. As is compliance with anti-money-laundering laws. > Which are governed by international agreements. Yeah, the surveillance state is doing fine but the flying cars predicted in 1963 never happened and there are some guys in orbit that hope they can thumb a ride home someday.
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| From | "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-08-19 21:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <-tCdna9pgbEqb177nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #58054 |
On 8/19/24 4:59 PM, rbowman wrote: > On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 02:01:00 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > >> On 18 Aug 2024 03:45:42 GMT, rbowman wrote: >> >>> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future: >>> >>> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system. >>> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any >>> numbskull human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting >>> who is getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market >>> computers might tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity >>> organizations could reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers >>> could report on individual medical costs." >> >> All routine nowadays. As is compliance with anti-money-laundering laws. >> Which are governed by international agreements. > > Yeah, the surveillance state is doing fine but the flying cars predicted > in 1963 never happened and there are some guys in orbit that hope they can > thumb a ride home someday. I sent a mail to SpaceX urging them to paint "Elon's Friendly Space Towing" with some hokey little graphic on the side of the eventual rescue capsule :-) As for the flying cars - probably best that they never worked ... there'd be flaming junk falling from the skies almost constantly. People suck even at 2-D driving. (Looks like there's no such thing as anti-gravity alas ... it'd require unbending spacetime) As for the money-laundering stuff ... fear not ... all the players will find work-arounds almost overnight. Some loopholes will be PROVIDED by those who drafted the laws and those who write the spy software. They'll get their cut of the action in return :-)
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