Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?

From	D <nospam@example.net>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date	2024-12-20 15:59 +0100
Organization	i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID	<550aa723-9077-3770-b8ea-2c4afcf77b54@example.net> (permalink)
References	(17 earlier) <UQKdnUKJir8UNf76nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@earthlink.com> <b5592fc5-3197-31cf-ac59-8a44e7db1ea3@example.net> <SLicnU51cs7fkvj6nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <9dbdf937-5f95-77d4-eaf8-b7dacda5edfb@example.net> <vk3k83$3dfgu$2@dont-email.me>

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On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 20/12/2024 09:57, D wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> 
>>>>>  just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
>>>> 
>>>> This is the truth! I like transhumanists as much as the next guy, but 
>>>> sometimes I think their technology optimists comes too close to religion 
>>>> for my comfort.
>>> 
>>>  Religions and related philosophies often think of
>>>  some kind of magical 'essence of being' that can
>>>  drift around. It's from the dark ages and beyond.
>>>  Great for horror movie plots though.
>> 
>> So you don't think that we are all god, living in god, being gods parts and
>> components? ;)
>> 
>
> Well that's Spinoza's hypothesis.

I know!

> What you term the material world is just 'God, made manifest'
>
> No more demented than any other metaphysical position.

This is the truth! I'm not a subscriber, but I'm a fan of it, because it 
is nice, simple and avoids complexities. It can even work, depending on 
your definition of god, for materialists! =D

>>>  Quite often we see papers describing how any of dozens
>>>  of 'helper' cells are modulating neuron activity on
>>>  the large and small scale. Some have neuron-ish qualities
>>>  unto themselves. The big blob of meat is a UNIT. You can
>>>  digitize the fine state of every neuron and you'll just
>>>  get an infunctional MESS on the other end.
>>> 
>>>  It's kinda All Or Nothing. We're not built like
>>>  computers - 'evo-goo' instead.
>>> 
>>>  (hey, I *like* that term and officially claim it :-)
>> 
>> Well, I see nothing that says we wouldn't be able to live in another kind 
>> of substrate if everything was simulated, but I find the
>> philosophical questions of if it would really be _us_ more
>> interesting (assuming it works, of
> course).
>
> Well yes. The human experience seems to be that of a consciousness bolted on 
> to an unruly animal. And most religions seem to be a process of denying or 
> repressing that, whereas the happier people simply accept there are two 
> people inside them and try and reach an accommodation.

Denyning or repressing? You sound so negative! ;) How about refining, 
distilling or enriching?

Talking about accepting and accomodating almost sounds a bit Jungian.

>> I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have an 
>> uploaded intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like
>> you, it wouldn't be you. I like conscious continuity, but many
>> transhumanists do not require that or believe that.
>> 
> The position is simply the old idea of 'soul' rehashed into IT terms. The 
> point is that there is the animal self, that it coexists with (or for you, 
> from whence consciousness emerges)
> Without that bag of biochemistry you wouldn't be what you are.
>
> It might be life, but not as we know it, Jim.

This is the truth! And even though transhumanists brand themselves as the 
scientific choice (TM), when you challenge them or question them, I feel 
as if you trigger their religious reflex.

A lot of them like to pay a fortune to freeze themselves, with the slim 
hope of being revived. I don't know if anyone ever did some statistics on 
it, but I suspect that you might have greater success donating to your 
local church in order to get God on your side! ;)

Do you debate transhumanists? Do they like you? And, do you like them?

>>>> Yes, I see no reason that should make uploading impossible, in theory, 
>>>> but we have no clue about how the mind works, so there could be plenty of 
>>>> reasons it won't work. Add to that the enormous quantum leap (or multiple 
>>>> quantum leaps) in technology, before being able to even physically 
>>>> replicate it. But with the religious, once I try that conversational 
>>>> track, I am shouted down and bood. =(
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  IM-possible, no - but you're not just gonna do some
>>>  kind of fancy MRI and transport a "mind" into any
>>>  one or any thing.
>> 
>> Come on! You're being so negative. Show some faith!! ;) For me, the
>> big problem is that we don't (yet) know how to mind works and even
>> what consciousness is, so how can we replicate it?
>> 
> We have done precisely that in creating computers.  They mimic our logical 
> processes.

Mimic to a small extent, yes, replicate, no. It's a big difference, 
especially at scale.

>>>> So basically, they extrapolate from 1 + 1 = 2, to a billion trillion and 
>>>> often handwave away the steps in between. That is what makes some of them 
>>>> religious in my opinion.
>>> 
>>>  It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
>>>  Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends
>>>  saw how easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor
>>>  or two and assumed it would thus be easy to build an AI.
>>>  AC Clarke used the Minsky optimism when fashioning the
>>>  idea of "HAL".
>>> 
>>>  But it all imploded. Turned out there were billions of
>>>  steps between input and that final, transistor-like,
>>>  decision. A photo-lightswitch is not 'intelligent'.
>> 
>> But now we have LLM:s! ;) What I find interesting is how different people 
>> view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be
>> incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids
>> for stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
>> I would not trust them for anything business, there I must check manually 
>> to make sure all is correct.
>
> *shrug* many people used to look it up in the Bible.
>
>> 
>
>> Then you have people who fall in love with their LLM. I find that 
>> incredible! Would they have fallen in love with Eliza?
>
> Id fall in love with any AI that could actually understand me :-)

Really? No aesthetical or haptical preferences?

>>>>>  As for "Robin Hoods" - there are many ways of looking
>>>>>  at that paradigm. Who "deserves" what ... not so easy.
>>>> 
>>>> Robin Hoods? You mean stealing from the government and giving to the 
>>>> people? The eternal libertarian hero?
>>> 
>>>  Um ... more 'commie' hero ....
>> 
>> Ahh... that spin of Robin Hood. It is not so good. =/ I read two of
>> the older editions Pyle and McFadden (I think) and there he seemed to
>> be more libertarian/anarchist than commie, always fighting the
>> state.
>
> Robin Hood, the Green man, Tom Bombadil, whatever, has always been a mythic 
> country dweller who takes up the cause of the peasants against the ruling 
> classes. He is a shadow of a pagan deity. The male spirit of the woods - of 
> trees and forests and of the spring. The vital spirit that causes things to 
> grow.
>
> The first appearance of the Robin Hood legend seems to be in Piers Plowman, a 
> sort of Paleo-Marxist tract from 1370 or so where the whole book is an 
> allegory of the fight for the working class (rural peasant in those days) 
> against the king and the church.

Very interesting, the lord of the rings guy I know, but the green man I 
will look up.

> Definitely a 'fuck the kings deer! Whose king is he anyway? let's have some 
> for ourselves'
>
> The only difference between libertarianism and communism, is when each gets 
> to power.

This is incorrect. The entire theory of property is a huge difference 
between them.

> Libertariansims tends towards a small state and individual freedom whereas 
> communism imposes  an egalitarianism using the biggest possible State, in 
> fact  the ideal is to leave only the State and its employees.

Your "only difference" threw me off there. I'd say this is quite a big 
difference and not the "only" difference.

> In communism you work for the state. In libertarianism you work for yourself

This is the truth as god intended! ;)

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Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-13 11:09 +0100
  Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-13 11:25 +0000
    Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:36 +0100
      Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 13:32 +0000
        Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 19:11 +0100
          Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 19:02 +0000
            Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 23:15 +0100
              Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-15 02:16 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 11:42 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-15 12:56 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 17:59 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-15 18:41 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 23:01 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-16 03:57 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-16 10:38 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-16 20:36 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-17 10:22 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-17 21:23 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-18 20:19 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-19 00:00 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-19 11:04 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-20 01:31 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-20 10:57 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-20 11:25 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-20 15:59 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-20 17:24 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-20 22:22 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-21 03:09 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-21 12:25 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-22 02:30 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-22 12:22 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-23 01:34 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-20 21:43 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-21 11:59 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-21 13:14 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-21 19:52 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-21 19:28 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-22 11:40 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-20 17:19 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-20 22:21 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-21 03:00 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-21 20:52 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-21 02:27 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-21 07:54 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-21 08:56 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-21 20:06 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-22 11:43 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-22 20:47 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-23 12:12 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-23 21:09 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 12:47 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-24 20:00 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 22:54 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-21 12:23 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-21 20:32 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-22 11:50 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-22 20:35 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-23 12:09 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-23 20:38 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-23 22:19 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-24 01:48 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 15:15 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-24 20:39 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 22:57 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-25 00:43 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-25 12:21 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-25 19:40 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-25 22:52 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-26 02:56 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 12:44 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-26 18:53 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-26 19:51 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-27 00:39 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-27 17:37 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-26 22:41 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-27 05:53 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-27 23:44 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-28 10:38 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-28 16:20 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-27 12:27 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-27 23:51 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-28 10:42 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-27 12:13 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-12-27 18:06 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-28 01:16 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-28 00:02 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-28 06:09 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-28 02:31 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-28 10:50 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-28 17:08 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-27 17:46 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-12-23 21:13 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-24 01:43 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 12:51 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-21 12:22 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-21 13:19 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-21 23:20 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-21 19:07 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-19 10:19 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-20 01:33 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-16 11:56 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-16 14:31 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-16 14:07 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-16 19:43 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-16 20:28 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-17 10:21 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-17 10:13 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-17 21:03 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-18 09:53 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-18 20:15 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 23:01 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-16 04:10 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-16 10:41 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-16 21:07 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-17 10:38 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-16 21:38 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-17 03:07 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-17 10:55 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-17 20:34 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-18 20:04 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-17 10:53 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-17 21:28 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-18 20:20 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-18 21:38 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-18 23:55 -0500
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-19 07:46 +0000
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-19 11:01 +0100
                Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ? D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-19 10:44 +0100

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