Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys)

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc, alt.comp.os.windows-11
Subject	Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys)
Date	2025-09-05 09:22 +0100
Organization	A little, after lunch
Message-ID	<109e6kh$297b5$4@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(21 earlier) <1099pev$18dit$2@dont-email.me> <109c2ms$1pa17$1@dont-email.me> <e0qoolxqi8.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <109cljn$1u3pu$4@dont-email.me> <daudnVMwSIHABCf1nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@giganews.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 05/09/2025 09:03, c186282 wrote:
> On 9/4/25 2:25 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/09/2025 17:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2025-09-04 15:03, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>> On 4/09/2025 2:13 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 03/09/2025 13:44, c186282 wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/3/25 8:20 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/09/2025 4:11 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-09-02 14:28, c186282 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/25 8:07 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <Snip>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our 
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mains" is 240V RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Active wire and the Neutral/Earth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in 
>>>>>>>>>>> an SMPS are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere here I read where someone refered to a 120V supplied 
>>>>>>>>>> that they typed was 90V effective. To me, 120V peak would be 
>>>>>>>>>> about 90V RMS (or effective).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Roughly, yes. It's sort of the REASON for 120vac - because
>>>>>>>>>    the effective energy is about the same as Edison's old 90vcd
>>>>>>>>>    service.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is something wrong with that. 120ac rms aka 170ac *ptp* 
>>>>>>>> has the same thermal effect as 120 dc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, Carlos, but is that "ptp" supposed to mean "Peak to Peak" 
>>>>>>> i.e. from Most Positive Value to Most Negative Value?? i.e. 
>>>>>>> Double the Peak Value and almost TRIPLE the RMS value??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    "AC/DC" appliances, "universal motors", work because 120vac
>>>>>>>>>    and 90vdc are very similar in some important ways.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    USA had to support competing systems for quite awhile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Just look at what you get if you put the 120vac through
>>>>>>    a full-wave rectifier with a load. It's close, though
>>>>>>    not exactly of course, equiv to 90vdc.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No., with capacitative smoothing its nearly 168V DC
>>>>> Its still 120V RMS, even though the waveform is kooky.
>>>>> Its never equivalent to 90V DC in any universe I know of.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry!! WHAT?? By feeding in a 120V RMS waveform, how the hell do 
>>>> you get anywhere near 168V DC??
>>>>
>>>> The 120V RMS waveform has a Peak Positive Value of +170V and a Peak 
>>>> Negative Value of -170V.
>>>>
>>>> How could you possibly expect to get an AVERAGE (smoothed) value of 
>>>> 168V DC??
>>>>
>>>> If you Full wave rectified the Sine Wave (so you had two Positive 
>>>> bumps per Cycle) and you then Filtered that (to produce DC), sure, 
>>>> you might get an UNLOADED 170V DC'ish ..... but not very useful!!
>>>
>>> Actually, you also get nearly 170V dc under some load, with a good LC 
>>> filter. If the load is higher, you need a transistor to smooth it out 
>>> at a lower voltage.
>>>
>> Don't use an LC filter,. Just a C.
> 
>    Ummmmmm .... 'C', if really high ... can do a
>    pretty good job. However THAT much 'C' has its
>    own design issues. MAY need a relay - that first
>    charges the cap thru a resistor and then finally
>    puts it fully online.
> 
You will find that the diodes  have forward resistance enough usually 
and in special cases a thermistor can be used to limit inrush current.

>    On, 'tick', finally ...
> 
>    Frankly, a moderate amount of 'C' - combined with LC
>    stages - will give you the smoothest profile. WILL
>    reduce the DC voltage, but it'll be NICE voltage.
> 
No one uses 'L's any more. We have electronics . A modern SMPSU doesnt 
care about the ripple since its electronically regulated to deliver a 
smoothed output no matter what the input voltage is, by the magic of 
negative feedback.

I have a late model Fender guitar amplifier that has no mains 
transformers AT ALL. The mains is SMPSU'ed down to ±70v or thereabouts 
and the output stages are ALSO PWM to class D.

Most of the amplifier is digital as well.  Done in software.

Modern power FETS and digital circuits were a wet dream when I started 
designing power electronics.


>    AC and DC never QUITE get along. It's all a kludge.
> 
Of course they get along.

You just have to introduce them properly...:-)

-- 
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

  – Ludwig von Mises

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Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-01 14:34 +0100
  Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-02 22:07 +1000
    Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-02 14:13 +0200
    Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-02 08:28 -0400
      Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-02 20:11 +0200
        Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-02 19:34 +0100
          Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-02 22:06 +0200
            Re: Electicity Supply Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-02 23:00 +0100
              Re: Electicity Supply Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-02 23:55 +0000
                Re: Electicity Supply Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-03 10:10 +0100
              Re: Electicity Supply Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-09-03 11:00 +0200
            Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-03 22:30 +1000
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-03 14:57 +0200
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-09-05 20:20 +0000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-06 04:45 +0200
        Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-03 01:45 -0400
          Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-03 10:02 +0100
            Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-03 05:57 -0400
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-03 11:37 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-09-05 20:25 +0000
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-03 22:45 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-09-05 20:27 +0000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-06 10:30 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-09-06 10:54 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-06 11:48 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-06 13:54 -0400
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-07 23:48 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-06 21:29 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-06 12:37 +0100
            Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-03 14:22 +0200
            Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-03 22:41 +1000
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-03 14:59 +0200
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-04 22:42 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-04 18:02 +0200
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-05 23:38 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-05 18:45 +0200
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 19:35 +0100
          Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-03 22:34 +1000
            Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-03 08:53 -0400
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-03 21:02 +0000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-04 22:45 +1000
            Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-03 17:09 +0100
        Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-03 22:20 +1000
          Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-03 08:44 -0400
            Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-03 17:13 +0100
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-04 23:03 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-04 18:06 +0200
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-04 19:25 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-05 04:03 -0400
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 09:22 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-05 08:09 -0400
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-05 23:57 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 19:44 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-05 05:10 -0400
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 10:33 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-05 05:46 -0400
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 11:14 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-05 06:44 -0400
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 12:02 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-05 23:44 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 19:36 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-06 21:35 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-06 12:57 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-06 22:26 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-06 17:01 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-04 19:16 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-05 03:45 -0400
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-05 09:12 +0100
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-06 00:12 +1000
                Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-06 00:10 +1000
              Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-09-05 20:37 +0000
    Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-09-02 15:30 +0100
      Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-02 15:35 +0100
      Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-02 21:22 +0000
      Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-09-03 01:08 -0400
        Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-03 23:03 +1000
      Re: Electicity Supply (Re: Pickup trucks for city boys) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-09-03 23:00 +1000

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