Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch

From	7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com>
Subject	Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.embedded
References	(3 earlier) <4rGdne-OKde544PNnZ2dnUVZ8hSdnZ2d@lyse.net> <pHvTr.553622$1o5.232527@fx03.am4> <rKidnYKhVfyCWYPNnZ2dnUVZ8vKdnZ2d@lyse.net> <jWzTr.524984$IP4.186435@fx26.am4> <KO-dnT99NoXj_ILNnZ2dnUVZ7vGdnZ2d@lyse.net>
Followup-To	comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.embedded
Message-ID	<f7VTr.515340$PE.261827@fx04.am4> (permalink)
Organization	virginmedia.com
Date	2012-08-06 20:43 +0100

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

Followups directed to: comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.embedded

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David Brown wrote:

> On 05/08/2012 21:35, 7 wrote:
>> David Brown wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/08/12 16:46, 7 wrote:
>>>> David Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/08/12 14:06, 7 wrote:
>>>>>> David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/08/12 21:06, 7 wrote:
>>>>>>>> ARM boot technology going up a notch
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ARM chips are constantly evolving.
>>>>>>>> So no two ARMs are really alike - always someone has added some
>>>>>>>> extra lines of VHDL code to add some more functions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The latest SoC feature an impressive array of functions
>>>>>>>> such as multiple cores, graphics accelerations, LCD controller,
>>>>>>>> HDMI interface, USB, USB OTH, SDCard, ethernet, camera interface,
>>>>>>>> SATA interface, RS232, ADC, sound, memory management unit,
>>>>>>>> DMA, SPI, CAN, RS232, Real time clock, etc, and ALL ON ONE CHIP!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point being, the chip can connect to a lot of devices
>>>>>>>> with minimal add on chips and components.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Notice the list includes a dedicated SDCard 2.0 interface
>>>>>>>> that allows the ARM chip to directly read an SDCard.
>>>>>>>> Some of these ARM chips have gone one step further
>>>>>>>> and also have extra pins to tell them to BOOT FROM SDCARD!!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That changes everything!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For the average embedded techie who creates products from thin air,
>>>>>>>> the way to program up an ARM is very expensive - they have
>>>>>>>> to buy a JTAG debugger and a commercial compiler that
>>>>>>>> works with that JTAG debugger to be able to do anything
>>>>>>>> useful. Or he can wait a few months to years for someone
>>>>>>>> in open source to catch up with the new chip with
>>>>>>>> open source OpenOCD JTAG debugger and Eclipse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JTAG debuggers are available for less than $50, or you can make them
>>>>>>> yourself.  (More expensive devices have higher speeds and more
>>>>>>> functions, of course.)  The most popular ARM toolchain is free
>>>>>>> (though again you can pay for more features, more support, etc., if
>>>>>>> you want).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is not a matter of "waiting for months or years" - support from
>>>>>>> OpenOCD and gcc normally arrives long before the chips.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And while booting from an SDCard may be a new feature,
>>>>>>> microcontrollers
>>>>>>> and processors have supported multiple boot modes for decades. 
>>>>>>> People who actually /work/ with these sorts of devices (as
>>>>>>> electronics developers and low-level programmers) have been happily
>>>>>>> booting from UARTs, Ethernet, CAN, SPI, QSPI, NAND flash, NOR flash,
>>>>>>> and a variety of other devices and data stores in addition to JTAG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not virgin devices. Some kind of software has to be put in somewhere
>>>>>> to allow the devices to boot from UART, ethernet, CAN, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I imagine you have never had experience of using microcontrollers. 
>>>>> Yes, you have to have software to support booting from these devices -
>>>>> just
>>>>> as you need software to support booting from an SDCard.  It is known
>>>>> as
>>>>> a "boot rom", and comes ready-programmed by the manufacturer.  It is
>>>>> /exactly/ the same principle whether it boots from SDCard or any other
>>>>> source.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Built-in boot rom support for SDCard is nothing revolutionary or
>>>>>>> dramatic.  It's a nice feature to have, but that's it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is revolutionary - not many have it with the booting features
>>>>>> enabled on virgin chips leaving the factory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many do.  All large microcontrollers have boot rom, as do a fair
>>>>> proportion of SOCs.  Traditionally, processors do not have boot rom on
>>>>> the chip itself - but all cards will have a boot device (usually NOR
>>>>> flash), and all manufacturers will program this as part of the
>>>>> manufacturing process.
>>>>
>>>> Flash - most controllers have it - and they can boot from that once
>>>> the software has been researched and developed and put in.
>>>
>>> Most /microcontrollers/ have flash (there is no strict definition of a
>>> microcontroller - but flash is pretty much a "must have" feature of
>>> modern microcontrollers).  Some SOCs have flash, but many do not.  No
>>> processors have flash.
>>>
>>> But virtually all processors are capable of booting directly from NOR
>>> flash - it does not need any sort of software or ROM in the device, just
>>> some default settings for the bus controller and the boot controller.
>>> Booting from NAND, SPI or QSPI flash is a little more difficult, and
>>> /may/ require a simple program in boot ROM, or may be handled directly
>>> in hardware by the flash controller.
>>>
>>>> Boot ROM - many controller can have it and contains the code
>>>> developed for or by the customer again after R&D.
>>>> That is common practice since whenever.
>>>
>>> Common practice is that is it developed by the manufacturer, not the
>>> customer.  A customer will only be involved in the development of the
>>> boot rom code if they are getting their own specialised or customised
>>> chip.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The next bit is different: Manufacturer puts in boot rom into SoC and
>>>> sets aside a pin to allow it boot from SDCard and put in code into
>>>> boot rom as part of a documented feature of the SoC.
>>>> All their chips are sold with this feature - not custom chips
>>>> or specially crafted one offs. So now you can boot
>>>> the chip as part of its documented behavior, by setting
>>>> one of its pin high and force it to boot from SDCard.
>>>
>>> This is /exactly/ the same as is done for booting from SPI flash, UARTs,
>>> Ethernet, CAN, USB, etc., etc.  It is not a revolution in any way - it
>>> is the same system as has always been used.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether you are totally ignorant of current practices, or
>>> just a sucker for whatever marketing exaggerations you read, but you are
>>> clearly out of your depth talking about these things.
>>
>>
>> You are an absolutely fscked up stupid troll infecting newsgroups.
>>
>> I await anxiously for you to name a couple of off the shelf chips
>> with clearly downloadable datasheets that clearly proves
>> each of your point - SPI flash, UARTs, ethernet, CAN, USB, etc..etc
>> booting without purchasing a JTAG debugger to program
>> in the boot loader.
>>
>>
> 
> I'll give you one example - the TI OMAP 3515.  This is an Arm Cortex-A8
> device that has been available for nearly 3 years.

Which is nothing as CPUs have been around for decades.

> You can find the technical reference manual quickly and simply from the
> TI web site.
> 
> Boot options are "execute in place" memory (typically NOR flash),
> DiskOnChip, NAND flash of various types, Uart, USB and - wait for it -
> booting directly from MMC cards or SD flash cards.
> 
> So not only is booting from an SD card /not/ any sort of revolution, it
> is not even new.
> 
> That was just the first example I looked at.  If you want to find other
> chips, look them up yourself - or arrange a consultancy contract with my
> employer.


So you learned to read my post!!!
 Date: Sunday 05 August 2012 13:06:23
 ++++++++++
 It is revolutionary - not many have it with the booting features
 enabled on virgin chips leaving the factory.
 Reading the forums, I only come across second hand info
 that the A10 and may be some TI/NXP chips as having it.
 The tech specs seem to be a closely guarded
 secret so still hunting for details.
 Why they are hiding the info I don't understand because
 all it does is hold back the sale of their own chips!!


As I told you it hardly common except in a very rare
set of CPUs. Outliers like high priced $40 SoCs like TI OMAP 3515
or CPUs with software written to it by third parties don't count towards
creating a revolution.
But low priced, high feature SoC costing $10 and readily
available like A10 are sporting it which is why
it is such a big big revolution.

It puts Linux within the reach of anyone with soldering 
capability to boot Linux without having to buy a JTAG
programmer.

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Thread

ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-03 20:06 +0100
  Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-08-05 13:32 +0200
    Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-05 13:06 +0100
      Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-08-05 16:07 +0200
        Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2012-08-05 15:38 +0100
          Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-05 16:11 +0100
          Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2012-08-05 14:38 -0400
        Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-05 15:46 +0100
          Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-08-05 21:06 +0200
            Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2012-08-05 15:26 -0400
              Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-05 20:46 +0100
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-05 20:59 +0100
              Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-08-06 08:15 +0200
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-08-06 14:11 +0000
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-08-06 22:37 +0200
              Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-06 07:47 -0500
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Big Steel <Run77712@Run77712.com> - 2012-08-06 08:52 -0400
            Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-05 20:35 +0100
              Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-08-06 08:09 +0200
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-06 20:43 +0100
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-08-06 22:44 +0200
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-06 22:14 +0100
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2012-08-06 22:41 +0100
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-06 22:51 +0100
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2012-08-06 22:58 +0100
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch 7 <email_at_www_at_enemygadgets_dot_com@enemygadgets.com> - 2012-08-06 23:31 +0100
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2012-08-07 00:51 +0200
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2012-08-06 19:30 -0400
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2012-08-07 01:36 +0200
                Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Foster <frankfoster50@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-06 20:14 -0400
        Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Scott Wood <scott@buserror.net> - 2012-08-25 13:39 -0500
    Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-08-06 14:07 +0000
      Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-06 09:48 -0500
      Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2012-08-06 17:23 +0100
        Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-08-06 18:36 +0000
  Re: ARM boot technology going up a notch "Stonethrower" <digi_64-public[removeme]@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-06 15:15 +0200

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