Groups > comp.os.linux.development.system > #683

Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.development.system
Subject	Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design
Date	2014-05-07 00:15 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<lkbmtk$e5i$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(17 earlier) <ljnp3t$ni7$1@dont-email.me> <87k3a0q867.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com> <lk91qa$9l3$1@dont-email.me> <lk965t$3o3$1@dont-email.me> <lka3vv$r0j$1@dont-email.me>

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On 06/05/14 09:46, crankypuss wrote:
> On 05/05/2014 05:17 PM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 06/05/14 00:02, crankypuss wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2014 02:31 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>>> crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>> <lots snipped>
>>>
>>>>> Some seem to disagree with that view, but then some people blindly
>>>>> parse command output with sed and use that to drive system-critical
>>>>> functionality; go figure.
>>>>
>>>> I did a lot of shell-programming when I was working on 'embeddded Linux
>>>> project' some years ago because that was the most convenient
>>>> programming
>>>> language available to me in that environment (ARM9 machine language
>>>> and C
>>>> being the other options) and 'sed' was the most sophisticated
>>>> text-processing tool available to me. What's wrong with using it?
>>>
>>> I know nothing about "ARM9 machine language" but if C was available, yet
>>> you used bash/sed, you must have been in one bigassed hurry or had some
>>> extremely simple requirements.  I'm sure your performed your job as
>>> expected and were rewarded accordingly.
>>
>> Someone who writes a C program when a simple bash/sed script could do
>> the task, would be failing to do their job as expected.  One of the
>> reasons Linux (and other *nix flavours) have multiple languages and
>> tools is that different tools are better for different jobs, and that
>> often it is the developer's time that is important rather than the
>> systems run time.  A developer who thinks C is the answer to every
>> question is like a carpenter armed only with a hammer.
>>
>> In the embedded Linux systems I have worked on, the final system used C,
>> Python, Perl, C++, and bash.  I don't think sed was used, except as part
>> of the makefiles.
>>
>
> Indeed, it is the developer's time that is important, because that is
> what the employer has purchased.  Most employees are not very good at
> building tools, and are as shortsighted as their employers.  Tools like
> sed have been magically provided to them, nobody ever had reason to
> write those because they were just magically there.  Far better to
> simply use what has been provided, as expected, rather than building a
> library of C subroutines that puts knocking out a small utility on the
> same level of effort as debugging a bash/sed script where a single
> misplaced character can cause unexpected errors that are difficult to
> find.  Not that C syntax is much less finicky, but it at least provides
> a few diagnostic clues regarding syntax errors.
>
> So, you mistake my words, I do not claim that C is the answer to every
> problem, or even that there is no value in the bash/sed combination
> (though I personally can't think of a situation where I'd use that
> particular combination).  One uses the best tools at hand, and if one
> finds that the best tools at hand are inadequate to the task, he obtains
> a more appropriate tool, or if none are available, builds what is
> needed.  I've used some gawdawful tools over the years, still use some
> on a daily basis; some of them annoy me and they are on the to-do list.
>
> People are different, some are more compliant than others, some simply
> grind through a task manually without even the use of something like
> bash/sed.  Some use the tools at hand, others realize that their own
> hands are their best tools.
>
> Since all programmers are equivalent economic units, they are easily
> replaced if they fail to perform as expected: the hive mind has no love
> for independent workers.

I don't know what world you live in, but it does not correspond to 
anything I have ever seen - either in terms of how people work, how 
employees do their jobs, how employers view their customers or their 
staff, or how any non-commercial work is done.  I resent the implication 
that I am incompetent because I use appropriate tools for the job 
(ready-made if they exist - but making my own if I have to), I resent 
the implication that my employer is incompetent because he expects me to 
use appropriate tools for the job, and I resent the implication that I 
am just a mindless drone at my job or that my employer treats me as such.

I don't know what you are doing posting in this newsgroup, since you 
apparently have no concept of how development work is done (either 
commercial or open-source development), and you have nothing but 
contempt for Linux as an operating system, the Linux environment, and 
the Linux and open-source development ethos (which is /precisely/ to 
re-use existing tools when possible, making new ones when needed, and 
making those new tools available for others to use rather than making 
their own).

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shred or scrub "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2014-04-16 18:17 -0400
  Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-17 04:19 -0600
    Re: shred or scrub "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2014-04-18 22:30 -0400
      Re: shred or scrub Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2014-04-19 07:42 +0000
        Re: shred or scrub Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2014-04-19 10:04 +0100
      Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-19 02:15 -0600
      Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-19 23:05 +0100
        Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-20 02:47 -0600
          Re: shred or scrub John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2014-04-20 07:56 -0500
            Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-21 03:51 -0600
              Re: shred or scrub Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2014-04-21 11:50 +0000
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-21 06:14 -0600
            Re: shred or scrub "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2014-04-21 18:44 -0400
          Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-21 13:24 +0100
            Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-22 04:10 -0600
              Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-22 14:39 +0100
  Re: shred or scrub Kristof Provost <kristof@codepro.be> - 2014-04-17 13:15 +0000
    Re: shred or scrub John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2014-04-17 09:40 -0500
      Re: shred or scrub Kristof Provost <kristof@codepro.be> - 2014-04-18 14:40 +0000
    Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-18 02:12 -0600
      Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-18 11:49 +0200
        Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-18 09:59 -0600
          Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-21 16:14 +0200
            Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-22 04:22 -0600
              Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-23 00:06 +0200
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-23 05:50 -0600
                Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-24 22:46 +0200
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-25 03:57 -0600
                Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-25 19:14 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:02 -0600
                Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-27 21:26 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-28 03:27 -0600
                Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-28 12:17 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-28 13:01 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-29 02:50 -0600
                UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design (was: shred or scrub) Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-05 21:31 +0100
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-05 16:02 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-05-06 01:17 +0200
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-06 01:46 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-06 15:09 +0100
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-06 23:47 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-07 16:23 +0100
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-07 10:51 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2014-05-07 20:25 +0000
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-08 03:50 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2014-05-08 20:24 +0000
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-09 02:23 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-09 18:36 +0100
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-09 21:24 +0100
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-07 22:01 +0100
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-08 03:37 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-08 14:02 +0100
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-09 02:56 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-05-07 00:15 +0200
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-07 00:32 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2014-05-07 08:47 +0000
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-05-07 10:59 -0600
                Re: UNIX(*)/ Linux history & system design Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-05-06 14:35 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-26 16:30 +0200
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-27 05:59 -0600
                Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-27 20:15 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-28 03:29 -0600
                Re: shred or scrub Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> - 2014-04-28 12:06 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-27 21:41 +0200
                Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-28 04:03 -0600
                Re: shred or scrub Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2014-04-28 16:44 +0100
                Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-28 23:39 +0200
      Re: shred or scrub John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2014-04-18 07:37 -0500
        Re: shred or scrub crankypuss <crankypuss@nomail.invalid> - 2014-04-18 10:16 -0600
          Re: shred or scrub John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2014-04-18 12:01 -0500
      Re: shred or scrub Kristof Provost <kristof@codepro.be> - 2014-04-18 14:42 +0000
  Re: shred or scrub David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-04-17 16:41 +0200

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