Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #687817 > unrolled thread

Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon

Back to article view | Back to comp.os.linux.advocacy

Contents

  Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-22 21:55 +0000
    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-22 22:50 +0000
    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A �Frequently-Returned Item� On Amazon Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 19:03 -0400
    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-22 21:09 -0400
      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A �Frequently-Returned Item� On Amazon Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 22:00 -0400
      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-23 06:20 +0000
        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-23 07:05 +0000
        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-23 07:13 -0400
          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-23 09:52 -0400
            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-24 00:38 +0000
              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-24 06:16 +0000
                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-24 03:30 -0400
                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-24 16:58 +0000
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 13:19 -0400
                      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-24 13:35 -0400
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 14:22 -0400
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-24 18:41 +0000
                          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 14:50 -0400
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-24 19:08 +0000
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 15:32 -0400
                                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-25 15:25 +0000
                                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 12:39 -0400
                                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-25 16:36 -0400
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-24 18:51 +0000
                      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-25 00:20 +0000
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-24 20:58 -0400
                          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-25 06:52 +0000
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 03:10 -0400
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-25 05:44 -0400
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-25 03:18 -0400
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 02:52 +0000
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-04-09 17:00 +0000
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 08:53 -0400
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-25 15:35 +0000
                          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 02:45 +0000
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-26 15:38 +0000
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-03-27 19:50 +1100
                                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-27 15:52 +0000
                                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A ?Frequently-Returned Item? On Amazon Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-03-28 19:43 +1100
          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-23 23:37 +0000
            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 08:54 -0400
              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-24 17:14 +0000
                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 13:21 -0400
                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-24 15:59 -0400
                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-25 00:45 +0000
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 21:44 -0400
                      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-25 06:48 +0000
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 08:52 -0400
                          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-03-25 13:02 +0000
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 09:16 -0400
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-25 17:30 -0400
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 02:41 +0000
                          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 02:37 +0000
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-26 08:33 -0400
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-03-26 12:45 +0000
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 17:13 +0000
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-03-26 17:21 +0000
                                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A �Frequently-Returned Item� On Amazon chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-03-27 07:25 -0500
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 20:31 +0000
              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-24 20:38 +0000
                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 19:27 -0400
                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-24 23:36 +0000
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 21:34 -0400
                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-25 07:05 +0000
                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 12:04 +0000
                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-26 19:43 +0000
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A �Frequently-Returned Item� On Amazon Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 15:46 -0400
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 20:18 +0000
        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 00:29 +0000
    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-22 21:09 -0400
    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-22 22:08 -0400
      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-23 07:08 -0400
        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A �Frequently-Returned Item� On Amazon Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 07:17 -0400
          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-23 15:10 -0400
            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 00:36 +0000
              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-24 06:21 +0000
                Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-24 11:15 -0400
                  Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 17:48 +0000
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-24 16:59 -0400
                    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-25 01:19 +0000
                      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-25 02:15 -0400
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 08:33 +0000
                          Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 03:13 +0000
                            Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 20:31 +0000
                              Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-03-27 19:57 +1100
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 03:07 +0000
                      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 08:26 +0000
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-25 06:14 -0400
                        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 03:46 +0000
        Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-23 23:38 +0000
    Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-03 20:32 +0000
      Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A “Frequently-Returned Item” On Amazon rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-04 01:47 +0000

Page 4 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5  Next page →

#688007

On 2025-03-24 4:38 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> On 2025-03-23 19:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 07:13:59 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, users seem to be happy with their Snapdragon-equipped
>>>> machines regardless of what the press says. I'm getting the
>>>> feeling that this is overblown, designed to make Microsoft look
>>>> bad in Apple's favour.
>>>
>>> If that were true, we should be seeing new models entering the market.
>>> Isn’t it getting on to about nine months since the last flurry of model
>>> introductions?
>>
>> Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
>> available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
>> models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
>> will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is playing
>> catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
> 
> Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
> now?
> 
> And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
> 
> But not for Windows, it seems.

I know that various manufacturers can make ARM chips but like you, I 
have no idea why others aren't. NVIDIA used to, and they weren't 
particularly good from what I understand. I would have expected AMD to 
bring one out to market too by this point. Of course, they're not 
necessarily going to be great sellers, so that might be why they're 
dragging their feet.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688010

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 19:27:02 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> On 2025-03-24 4:38 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
>> now?
>> 
>> And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
>> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
>> 
>> But not for Windows, it seems.
> 
> I know that various manufacturers can make ARM chips but like you, I
> have no idea why others aren't.

Lots of ARM chips are available for Android, Linux etc. Just not for 
Windows.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688035

On 2025-03-24 7:36 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 19:27:02 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> On 2025-03-24 4:38 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
>>> now?
>>>
>>> And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
>>> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
>>>
>>> But not for Windows, it seems.
>>
>> I know that various manufacturers can make ARM chips but like you, I
>> have no idea why others aren't.
> 
> Lots of ARM chips are available for Android, Linux etc. Just not for
> Windows.

Can any of those Android chips run Windows comfortably? I imagine that a 
few of them are quite capable.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688083

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 19:27:02 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> I know that various manufacturers can make ARM chips but like you, I
> have no idea why others aren't. NVIDIA used to, and they weren't
> particularly good from what I understand. I would have expected AMD to
> bring one out to market too by this point. Of course, they're not
> necessarily going to be great sellers, so that might be why they're
> dragging their feet.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/23/23929240/nvidia-amd-cpu-arm-pc-
chips-2025-release-rumors

Nvidia has been doing ARM for a long time. They may be trying hard to 
forget the Tegra 3 adventure with Microsoft in the Surface RT debacle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegra

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688102

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> On 2025-03-23 19:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 07:13:59 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Well, users seem to be happy with their Snapdragon-equipped
>>>> machines regardless of what the press says. I'm getting the
>>>> feeling that this is overblown, designed to make Microsoft look
>>>> bad in Apple's favour.
>>> 
>>> If that were true, we should be seeing new models entering the market.
>>> Isn’t it getting on to about nine months since the last flurry of model
>>> introductions?
>> 
>> Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite 
>> available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new 
>> models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers 
>> will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is playing 
>> catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
> 
> Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about 
> now?
> 
> And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key 
> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
> 
> But not for Windows, it seems.

Microsoft signed an exclusive deal with QC. That's why there is no Boot
Camp for Arm Macs. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688191

On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 12:04:11 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>> 
>>> Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
>>> available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
>>> models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
>>> will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is
>>> playing catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
>> 
>> Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
>> now?
>> 
>> And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
>> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
>> 
>> But not for Windows, it seems.
> 
> Microsoft signed an exclusive deal with QC. That's why there is no Boot
> Camp for Arm Macs.

Do you get the feeling Microsoft *wants* Windows-on-ARM to fail?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688193 — Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A �Frequently-Returned Item� On Amazon

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 12:04:11 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
>>>> available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
>>>> models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
>>>> will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is
>>>> playing catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
>>> 
>>> Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
>>> now?
>>> 
>>> And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
>>> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
>>> 
>>> But not for Windows, it seems.
>> 
>> Microsoft signed an exclusive deal with QC. That's why there is no Boot
>> Camp for Arm Macs.
>
>Do you get the feeling Microsoft *wants* Windows-on-ARM to fail?


It isn't going to fail.  It's still in development, essentially, still
relying on x86 emulation, but there's no question if I wanted a
laptop, I'd go with a Snapdragon-based model.  I wouldn't run
Win11Copilot on it, though, but Linux.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent.  States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688197

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 12:04:11 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
> 
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
>>>> available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
>>>> models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
>>>> will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is
>>>> playing catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
>>> 
>>> Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
>>> now?
>>> 
>>> And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
>>> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
>>> 
>>> But not for Windows, it seems.
>> 
>> Microsoft signed an exclusive deal with QC. That's why there is no Boot
>> Camp for Arm Macs.
> 
> Do you get the feeling Microsoft *wants* Windows-on-ARM to fail?

They're unwilling to fully commit thereby guaranteeing its failure. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687923

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2025 21:09:22 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> The reality here is that Microsoft should have had a compatibility
>> layer for most of the software ready on day one, much like Apple did.
> 
> They already do, but it’s not enough. ARM chips are supposed to offer some 
> kind of energy-saving advantage, but you don’t get that through a 
> compatibility layer.
> 
>> Say what you will about Apple, but they provided users a decent bridge
>> from 9.2.2 to X, from IBM to Intel and from x86-64 to ARM.
> 
> Somehow they managed to sell those transitions to their user and developer 
> base as steps forward. 

They made it as easy and transparent as possible. Plus were laser focused
on delivering a rapid transition. 

Rosetta 2 is so efficient that x86-64 mac binaries run faster on Arm macs
than natively on the previous generation. 

> Microsoft has failed to do the same.

They engineered it poorly and are unwilling to unshackle themselves from
intel. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687828

On 2025-03-22 5:55 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
> that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
> to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
> workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
> great difficulty seeing the point to them.
> 
> <https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>

The reality here is that Microsoft should have had a compatibility layer 
for most of the software ready on day one, much like Apple did. Say what 
you will about Apple, but they provided users a decent bridge from 9.2.2 
to X, from IBM to Intel and from x86-64 to ARM.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687830

On Sat, 3/22/2025 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
> that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
> to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
> workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
> great difficulty seeing the point to them.
> 
> <https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
> 

Microsoft does have a translater, to run Win32 code on ARM.
That's what is on the Snapdragon device.

   "What is Prism?

    Prism is Microsoft's emulation technology that enables x86/x64
    applications to run on Windows PCs with Arm processors, such
    as Surface Pro 11th Edition, Snapdragon processor;
    Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro X, and Surface Laptop 7th Edition,
    Snapdragon processor. It seamlessly translates app code to run on
    ARM architecture, optimizing performance, and reducing CPU usage
    to ensure a smooth user experience on devices powered by
    Snapdragon X series chips."

Google is playing up right now, but I gather that isn't working
all that well. Some installers can "detect" they're running on the
wrong platform.

One person using one of those products, experienced good performance
at first (right after the OOBE), but as soon as some updates came
in, the emulator performance cratered.

Summary: "Safer to test the emulator on a Raspberry PI than spend $3K and return it"

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687848

On 2025-03-22 10:08 p.m., Paul wrote:
> On Sat, 3/22/2025 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
>> that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
>> to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
>> workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
>> great difficulty seeing the point to them.
>>
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
>>
> 
> Microsoft does have a translater, to run Win32 code on ARM.
> That's what is on the Snapdragon device.
> 
>     "What is Prism?
> 
>      Prism is Microsoft's emulation technology that enables x86/x64
>      applications to run on Windows PCs with Arm processors, such
>      as Surface Pro 11th Edition, Snapdragon processor;
>      Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro X, and Surface Laptop 7th Edition,
>      Snapdragon processor. It seamlessly translates app code to run on
>      ARM architecture, optimizing performance, and reducing CPU usage
>      to ensure a smooth user experience on devices powered by
>      Snapdragon X series chips."
> 
> Google is playing up right now, but I gather that isn't working
> all that well. Some installers can "detect" they're running on the
> wrong platform.
> 
> One person using one of those products, experienced good performance
> at first (right after the OOBE), but as soon as some updates came
> in, the emulator performance cratered.
> 
> Summary: "Safer to test the emulator on a Raspberry PI than spend $3K and return it"

Thanks for that, I had no idea that Microsoft actually came up with 
something to convert. Of course, it doesn't seem to work all that well 
if people are returning their machines the way the press says they are. 
It's not like the press would lie or anything, right?

I can't help but notice the stellar reviews the supposedly returned 
devices are getting.
-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687850 — Re: Windows-on-ARM Laptop Is A �Frequently-Returned Item� On Amazon

CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>On 2025-03-22 10:08 p.m., Paul wrote:
>> On Sat, 3/22/2025 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

>>> It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
>>> that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
>>> to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
>>> workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
>>> great difficulty seeing the point to them.
>>>
>>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
>> 
>> Microsoft does have a translater, to run Win32 code on ARM.
>> That's what is on the Snapdragon device.
>> 
>>     "What is Prism?
>> 
>>      Prism is Microsoft's emulation technology that enables x86/x64
>>      applications to run on Windows PCs with Arm processors, such
>>      as Surface Pro 11th Edition, Snapdragon processor;
>>      Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro X, and Surface Laptop 7th Edition,
>>      Snapdragon processor. It seamlessly translates app code to run on
>>      ARM architecture, optimizing performance, and reducing CPU usage
>>      to ensure a smooth user experience on devices powered by
>>      Snapdragon X series chips."
>> 
>> Google is playing up right now, but I gather that isn't working
>> all that well. Some installers can "detect" they're running on the
>> wrong platform.
>> 
>> One person using one of those products, experienced good performance
>> at first (right after the OOBE), but as soon as some updates came
>> in, the emulator performance cratered.
>> 
>> Summary: "Safer to test the emulator on a Raspberry PI than spend $3K and return it"
>
>Thanks for that, I had no idea that Microsoft actually came up with 
>something to convert. Of course, it doesn't seem to work all that well 
>if people are returning their machines the way the press says they are. 
>It's not like the press would lie or anything, right?
>
>I can't help but notice the stellar reviews the supposedly returned 
>devices are getting.


It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
on that mother fucker.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent.  States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687894

On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2025-03-22 10:08 p.m., Paul wrote:
>>> On Sat, 3/22/2025 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> 
>>>> It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
>>>> that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
>>>> to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
>>>> workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
>>>> great difficulty seeing the point to them.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
>>>
>>> Microsoft does have a translater, to run Win32 code on ARM.
>>> That's what is on the Snapdragon device.
>>>
>>>     "What is Prism?
>>>
>>>      Prism is Microsoft's emulation technology that enables x86/x64
>>>      applications to run on Windows PCs with Arm processors, such
>>>      as Surface Pro 11th Edition, Snapdragon processor;
>>>      Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro X, and Surface Laptop 7th Edition,
>>>      Snapdragon processor. It seamlessly translates app code to run on
>>>      ARM architecture, optimizing performance, and reducing CPU usage
>>>      to ensure a smooth user experience on devices powered by
>>>      Snapdragon X series chips."
>>>
>>> Google is playing up right now, but I gather that isn't working
>>> all that well. Some installers can "detect" they're running on the
>>> wrong platform.
>>>
>>> One person using one of those products, experienced good performance
>>> at first (right after the OOBE), but as soon as some updates came
>>> in, the emulator performance cratered.
>>>
>>> Summary: "Safer to test the emulator on a Raspberry PI than spend $3K and return it"
>>
>> Thanks for that, I had no idea that Microsoft actually came up with 
>> something to convert. Of course, it doesn't seem to work all that well 
>> if people are returning their machines the way the press says they are. 
>> It's not like the press would lie or anything, right?
>>
>> I can't help but notice the stellar reviews the supposedly returned 
>> devices are getting.
> 
> 
> It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
> reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
> on that mother fucker.

Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.

The idea is, while you can run multiple video cards,
like the two on the left, you get a better result
if a single card has more RAM on it. In addition to
video cards, some people run "computer clusters" with
crappy network wiring between them. No one mentions
how fast those go. The purpose of me telling you this,
is to discourage buying a shitload of video cards and
hoping it will work well. So far, it would appear we
need to wait for the next generation of video cards
with HBM3 memory on them. I feel better now, that I did not
buy certain video cards L-)

        16GB RAM       16GB RAM                   32GB RAM
        4000 shaders   4000 shaders    versus     4000 shaders
          ^              ^
          |     PCIe     |                        7X faster for AI
          +--------------+

The models are tuned sequentially, and at a certain size.
If a group of experts of size 35GB is on offer, then the
single video card of 48GB size might be able to run it.
The AI is laid out as linear stages. Load and run Step 1.
Load and run Step 2. Load and run Step 3.

     +--------+     +--------+    +--------+
     | Step 1 |     | Step 2 |    | Step 3 | ==>
     +--------+     +--------+    +--------+

Which isn't exactly like how the human brain works.

Even if the hardware had more room, the way it works
might still be discrete steps.

The first step, is strategy planning, for whatever
other steps are required. Loading the video cards would
be from a PCIe Rev5 NVMe. Your question might use the
math module, or the studio art model (for drawing pictures).

But you can test them now, and see if there are good at
anything. At the current time, you do not come away
from the experience, thinking the thing is all that useful.

For example, I asked it to make a list of 2025 internal combustion
cars in the SUV style, and it made a list, but the list
was no better than a regular web site would offer for
such a class of things. If you asked a human
such a question, they would point out which models had
manual heating controls :-) Not so with the AI. Dumb as
a post.

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687924

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
>> 
>> It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
>> reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
>> on that mother fucker.
> 
> Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.

You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works well
too!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687930

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:36:17 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
>>> reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
>>> on that mother fucker.
>> 
>> Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.
> 
> You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works
> well too!

Training and inference are two different things. Other than toy datasets I 
doubt much training will happen locally. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687949

On Mon, 3/24/2025 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:36:17 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
> 
>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
>>>> reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
>>>> on that mother fucker.
>>>
>>> Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.
>>
>> You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works
>> well too!
> 
> Training and inference are two different things. Other than toy datasets I 
> doubt much training will happen locally. 

Realistically, I think it's going to be quite a while,
if ever, before we can put together a decent box for inference.

In this gold rush, all the excess profit is in "mules and shovels".
A mule I was looking at today, the price is $8500 or so.

This kind of pricing, is hardly encouraging.

It would be cheaper, to build a wooden box, and
put a midget inside the box, and have it answer
questions. Can anyone give me a price on a
PhD class midget ?

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687966

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 3/24/2025 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:36:17 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>> 
>>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
>>>>> reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
>>>>> on that mother fucker.
>>>> 
>>>> Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.
>>> 
>>> You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works
>>> well too!
>> 
>> Training and inference are two different things. Other than toy datasets I 
>> doubt much training will happen locally. 
> 
> Realistically, I think it's going to be quite a while,
> if ever, before we can put together a decent box for inference.

Not quite sure what exactly you mean by "inference", the latest Mac Studio
that can go up to 512GB RAM is certainly heading in the right direction for
local LLM training. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#687993

On Mon, 3/24/2025 1:48 PM, Chris wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 3/24/2025 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:36:17 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
>>>>>> reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
>>>>>> on that mother fucker.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.
>>>>
>>>> You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works
>>>> well too!
>>>
>>> Training and inference are two different things. Other than toy datasets I 
>>> doubt much training will happen locally. 
>>
>> Realistically, I think it's going to be quite a while,
>> if ever, before we can put together a decent box for inference.
> 
> Not quite sure what exactly you mean by "inference", the latest Mac Studio
> that can go up to 512GB RAM is certainly heading in the right direction for
> local LLM training. 
> 

There's two elements.

    Memory bandwidth   <=== needs terabytes/sec
    Cores

The problem is, the PCIe Rev5 path to System Memory is
too slow. The Cores are on the video card (like 26000
cores, when a CPU NPU has a lot fewer cores).

A video card has 20x the core performance of an NPU.

Right now, there is a race on, at several memory companies,
to build stacked HBM3 or so. Traditionally, those are put on
the same substrate, next to the cores. Will they continue
to do it that way ? As it is restrictive to be trying to jam
all the memory, right next to the cores. The serial interconnect,
could be up at around 100 gbit/sec per serial interface. And there
are a lot of those, jumping to the next chip. The technology for this,
was first proved out on FPGA chips, at 56Gbit/sec and 112Gbit/sec.
That s a say of doing comms between FPGA chips, to build larger
arrays of chips.

This is an example of how to do it. Each "computer" is made of an entire wafer
of logic gates, and is water cooled from the back side. I have no idea how
the memory gets connected to this thing. It has a limited amount of local
memory, which is still a lot bigger than what video cards have for their
internal memory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebras

https://www.cerebras.ai/press-release/cerebras-announces-third-generation-wafer-scale-engine

   4 trillion transistors
   900,000 AI cores
   125 petaflops of peak AI performance
   44GB on-chip SRAM
   5nm TSMC process
   External memory: 1.5TB, 12TB, or 1.2PB
   Trains AI models up to 24 trillion parameters
   Cluster size of up to 2048 CS-3 systems          # That is 2048 systems at 26KW electricity each = 53MW

"Ordinary" chips are one inch on edge. They don't yield well
if made larger than that. That company has perfected cooling
an entire wafer, without the wafer cracking. And their design
intent has changed from "general computing" or "supercomputing"
to "AI". That's what the latest wafer represents, is a shift
to entering the AI market.

26kW for a single wafer system, that's 1.3x the entire incomer on your house :-)

So really, the question there is not the "core prowess", it's the memory
interconnect method that matters most. An "ordinary" interconnect simply
will not do, and will ruin the performance of the thing.

A full sized system ("skynet") would cost $2 billion to $4 billion or so.
Cheap, really. And 53MW is peanuts.

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#688033

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 17:48:25 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Not quite sure what exactly you mean by "inference", the latest Mac
> Studio that can go up to 512GB RAM is certainly heading in the right
> direction for local LLM training.

Inference is when new data is fed into an existing model to reach 
conclusions. This is a decent overview of creating and training a model.

https://www.nitorinfotech.com/blog/training-large-language-models-llms-
techniques-and-best-practices/

I haven't looked at this series but there a many PyTorch or TensorFlow 
tutorials online.

https://pytorch.org/tutorials/beginner/basics/intro.html

The original MNIST database was 60,000 pre-scaled images of hand written 
digits. Fashion MNIST has 60,000 grayscale  clothing images and 10,000 
test images. This isn't NLP and the datasets are laughingly small. If 
you're lucky you have a Nvidia GPU. So far most packages use CUDA which is 
a Nvidia thing. Some can be set to use the CPU. In either case you might 
want to go for a cup of coffee while the epochs spool by minimizing the 
loss function.

You do realize the players in the field are using banks of $40,000 Nvidia 
GPUs and are trying to buy nuclear plants to power them? If you want to 
talk about ChatGPT here are some numbers.

https://www.moomoo.com/community/feed/109834449715205
https://www.forbes.com/sites/katharinabuchholz/2024/08/23/the-extreme-
cost-of-training-ai-models/

Not coming to a desktop near you any time soon.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 4 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.os.linux.advocacy

csiph-web