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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #659317 > unrolled thread

It's over

Started byJoel <joelcrump@gmail.com>
First post2024-07-09 01:12 -0400
Last post2024-07-14 15:15 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 185 — 15 participants

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Contents

  It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-09 01:12 -0400
    Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-09 05:50 +0000
      Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-09 02:11 -0400
    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-09 07:12 +0000
      Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-09 08:11 -0400
        Re: 🏳️‍🌈It's over🏳️‍🌈 🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈Jen🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 Dershmender 💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🐶笛🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 <root@127.0.0.1>  - 2024-07-09 14:11 +0000
          Re: 🏳️‍🌈It's over🏳️‍🌈 Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-09 10:22 -0400
        Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-10 00:46 +0000
          Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-10 01:56 +0000
            Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-10 04:14 +0000
              Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-11 15:25 -0400
                Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-11 21:39 +0000
                  Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-11 18:55 -0400
                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-11 23:48 +0000
                    Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 00:55 +0000
                      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-12 01:01 +0000
                        Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 02:38 +0000
                Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-11 22:30 +0000
                  Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-11 18:57 -0400
                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-11 23:49 +0000
                    Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 00:48 +0000
                      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-12 01:03 +0000
                        Re: It's over chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2024-07-15 15:22 -0500
                          Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 16:40 -0400
                            Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-15 16:56 -0400
                              Re: It's over % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 14:54 -0700
                            Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 01:04 +0000
                    Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-12 11:22 -0400
                      Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-12 12:58 -0400
                      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-12 23:01 +0000
                        Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-13 12:01 -0400
                          Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-13 18:04 +0000
                            Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-13 23:22 +0000
                              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-14 04:20 +0000
                                Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 18:15 -0400
                                  Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 01:46 +0000
                                Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 01:46 +0000
                            Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-14 15:30 +0000
                              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-14 19:36 +0000
                                Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 01:47 +0000
                                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-15 04:59 +0000
                                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 05:43 +0000
                                      Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-15 17:41 +0000
                                        Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 01:03 +0000
                          Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-13 23:22 +0000
                            Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 07:34 -0400
                              Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 01:49 +0000
                                Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 12:54 -0400
                                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-16 00:16 +0000
                                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 01:01 +0000
                                      Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-16 14:40 +0000
                                        Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-16 19:56 +0000
                                          Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 23:46 +0000
                                            Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-17 02:50 +0000
                                              Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-19 01:26 +0000
                                                Re: It's over RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 02:21 +0000
                                                  Re: It's over vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-07-19 03:06 +0000
                                                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-19 08:05 +0000
                                                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-19 04:44 +0000
                                                Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-19 04:36 +0000
                                    Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 21:44 -0400
                                      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 02:44 +0000
                                        Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 23:14 -0400
                                          Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 05:41 +0000
                                            Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-16 09:55 -0400
                                              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-16 19:47 +0000
                                          Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-16 06:40 +0000
                                            Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 07:25 +0000
                                            Re: It's over Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-07-16 07:14 -0400
                                              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-16 19:38 +0000
                                                Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-16 17:22 -0400
                                                  Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 23:45 +0000
                                                Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 23:44 +0000
                                                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-17 02:46 +0000
                                                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-19 00:59 +0000
                                                      Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-19 04:33 +0000
                                                        Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-19 08:02 +0000
                                                          Re: It's over RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 13:21 +0000
                                  Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 01:00 +0000
                                    Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 21:47 -0400
                                      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 05:40 +0000
                                        Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-16 09:52 -0400
                                          Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-16 23:42 +0000
            Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-10 13:20 +0000
              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-10 18:45 +0000
                Re: It's over Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-07-10 15:52 -0400
                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-11 03:33 +0000
                    Re: It's over Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-07-11 11:58 -0400
                      Re: It's over % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2024-07-11 09:02 -0700
                        Re: It's over Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-07-12 15:40 -0400
                          Re: It's over % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2024-07-12 14:21 -0700
                          Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-13 15:00 +0000
                            Re: It's over Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-07-14 08:01 -0400
                              Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-14 15:30 +0000
                      Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-11 18:02 +0000
                  Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-13 15:00 +0000
                Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-10 22:27 +0000
                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-11 03:26 +0000
                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-11 03:33 +0000
                    Re: It's over vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-07-11 03:48 +0000
                      Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-11 06:48 +0000
                      Re: It's over Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-07-11 12:07 -0400
    Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-09 13:02 -0400
      Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-09 13:44 -0400
      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-10 00:47 +0000
        Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-10 02:01 +0000
      Re: It's over Tyrone <none@none.none> - 2024-07-10 04:58 +0000
        Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-10 06:57 +0000
          Re: It's over vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-07-10 11:29 +0000
            Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-10 18:15 +0000
              Re: It's over WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-10 17:32 -0400
                Re: It's over vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-07-10 21:38 +0000
                  Re: It's over WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-10 19:32 -0400
                Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-11 03:54 +0000
                  Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-11 05:56 +0000
                    Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-11 06:56 +0000
                      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-11 07:17 +0000
        Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-10 07:14 +0000
        Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-10 13:14 -0400
          Re: It's over WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-10 13:25 -0400
            Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-10 22:28 +0000
    Re: It's over WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-10 10:43 -0400
      Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-10 12:46 -0400
        Re: It's over WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-10 12:51 -0400
        Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-10 22:29 +0000
          Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-11 15:37 -0400
            Re: It's over WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-11 19:42 -0400
              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 00:58 +0000
              Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-11 22:07 -0400
                Re: It's over CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-12 07:10 -0400
                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 14:07 +0000
                    Re: It's over CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-12 15:07 -0400
                      Re: It's over % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2024-07-12 12:19 -0700
                        Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-12 23:07 +0000
                          Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-13 00:30 +0000
                      Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-12 15:29 -0400
                        Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 20:52 +0000
                      Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 20:44 +0000
                        Re: It's over % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2024-07-12 14:22 -0700
                        Re: It's over CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-12 17:49 -0400
                        Re: It's over CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-12 17:51 -0400
                          Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-12 23:50 +0000
                      Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-12 23:02 +0000
                        Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-13 00:23 +0000
                Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-20 19:32 -0400
                  Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-20 19:45 -0400
                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-21 05:54 +0000
                      Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-21 16:43 -0400
            Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-12 01:05 +0000
              Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-13 14:30 +0000
                Re: It's over CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-13 17:19 -0400
                  Re: It's over DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-07-13 17:56 -0400
                    Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 17:46 -0400
                  Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-14 15:50 +0000
                    Re: It's over CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-14 16:02 -0400
                      Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-15 16:00 +0000
                Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-13 23:24 +0000
                  Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-14 15:30 +0000
                    Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 01:50 +0000
                      Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-15 16:00 +0000
          Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-13 14:30 +0000
            Re: It's over Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2024-07-13 14:45 +0000
              Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-13 15:00 +0000
                Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-13 12:06 -0400
                Re: It's over Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2024-07-14 11:16 +0000
                Re: It's over vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-07-15 05:35 +0000
              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-13 17:21 +0000
              Re: It's over RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 01:24 +0000
                Re: It's over Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2024-07-14 11:13 +0000
                  Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-14 15:30 +0000
            Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-13 12:05 -0400
              Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-13 23:27 +0000
                Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 07:39 -0400
                  Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 01:55 +0000
            Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-13 23:25 +0000
              Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 17:46 -0400
                Re: It's over Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-07-15 01:52 +0000
          Re: It's over chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2024-07-14 06:26 -0500
            Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-14 15:30 +0000
              Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-14 18:53 +0000
                Re: It's over CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-07-14 16:09 -0400
                Re: It's over candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-07-15 16:00 +0000
                  Re: It's over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-07-15 17:43 +0000
            Re: It's over Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 15:15 -0400

Page 2 of 10 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 … 10  Next page →


#659555

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-07-12 00:48 +0000
Message-ID<lfbcq6Fi6lmU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#659540
On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 18:57:34 -0400, Joel wrote:

> This is simply a matter of dominoes falling, ARM will supplant x86, it's
> over as I said in the Subject line, they will put everything on this
> hardware.  I would never buy another x86 machine, but the one I have
> could probably remain useful for a long time.

You have hit on one of the problems.

https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/windows-10-still-
has-more-than-double-the-market-share-of-windows-11-and-that-doesnt-look-
like-it-will-change-any-time-soon

"Windows 11 continues to lag behind Windows 10 in terms of market share.
The latest figures from StatCounter state Windows 10 has a 67.23% market 
share, while Windows 11 only has a market share of 28.18%."

Consider what that means. Windows 11 came out in 2021 and presumably any 
computer purchased since then would have Windows 11 preinstalled. I bought 
my laptop in 2020 with Windows 10 and have upgraded it to 11. The only 
reason was IT forced all the work machines to be upgraded and I figured I 
might as well otherwise I would still be in the 67%. I have no reason to 
buy a laptop in the near future.

To get back on point, this means 67% of the computers were probably 
purchased prior to 2021. The people aren't moving to Windows 11 although 
many of the machine are capable and they aren't buying new machines. What 
they have presently meets their needs.

So, what is the compelling reason to buy a new machine, particularly with 
an unproven version of Windows running on unproven hardware? So far the 
ARM64 API is tailored for the Broadcomm Snapdragon so the performance 
across the few vendors (Microsoft, Samsung, and Lenovo) will be similar. 
They all will be struggling for market share. Will anyone else get in the 
game in 2025 if the pioneers have lackluster sales? Will the profit 
margins be there?  Is ARM64 and high end an oxymoron?

I don't know. There are a lot of hail mary passes in play to stimulate 
sales after the covid bump but in a tight economy there has to be a 
reason. So far Microsoft's AI is being met with a yawn in the enterprise 
users. Will new laptops save the day? 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659559

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-07-12 01:03 +0000
Message-ID<v6pvdg$2mv4v$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659555
On 12 Jul 2024 00:48:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> So far the ARM64 API is tailored for the [Qualcomm] Snapdragon so the
> performance across the few vendors (Microsoft, Samsung, and Lenovo) will
> be similar.

That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in 
the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of 
ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659866

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2024-07-15 15:22 -0500
Message-ID<951b9j501utqmi6roubor5oso9mihjupq7@4ax.com>
In reply to#659559
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

>That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in 
>the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of 
>ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.

Made in Taiwan, of course.  With Chinese warships circling.

-- 
"My whole claim is that JPGs can and often do have EXIF data (but need
not to).  [Peter K] claims I am wrong."  -  some thing, lying
shamelessly (but no one can quote it lying)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659867

FromJoel <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2024-07-15 16:40 -0400
Message-ID<r02b9j1pdhubp20omnk53eo46g6ckignu5@4ax.com>
In reply to#659866
chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in 
>>the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of 
>>ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.
>
>Made in Taiwan, of course.  With Chinese warships circling.


I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now.  I'd ask why
it's only in the XPS 13, and Apple with VMs.  I know that I'd give up
some Linux choice with an ARM device, so it's convenient that I have
perfectly good x86 gear right now, but boy if I were in laptops that
Dell would be a nice one.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent.  States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659873

FromDFS <nospam@dfs.com>
Date2024-07-15 16:56 -0400
Message-ID<v742eo$ruc4$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659867
On 7/15/2024 4:40 PM, Joel wrote:
> chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in
>>> the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of
>>> ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.
>>
>> Made in Taiwan, of course.  With Chinese warships circling.
> 
> 
> I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
> designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now.  I'd ask why
> it's only in the XPS 13, and Apple with VMs.  I know that I'd give up
> some Linux choice with an ARM device, so it's convenient that I have
> perfectly good x86 gear right now, but boy if I were in laptops that
> Dell would be a nice one.


You might like these:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs

I like my 34" widescreen monitor and larger Comfort Curve 2000 keyboard, 
so a laptop isn't for me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659877

From% <pursent100@gmail.com>
Date2024-07-15 14:54 -0700
Message-ID<nBmdnaih7rjhBwj7nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#659873
DFS wrote:
> On 7/15/2024 4:40 PM, Joel wrote:
>> chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in
>>>> the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide 
>>>> range of
>>>> ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.
>>>
>>> Made in Taiwan, of course.  With Chinese warships circling.
>>
>>
>> I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
>> designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now.  I'd ask why
>> it's only in the XPS 13, and Apple with VMs.  I know that I'd give up
>> some Linux choice with an ARM device, so it's convenient that I have
>> perfectly good x86 gear right now, but boy if I were in laptops that
>> Dell would be a nice one.
> 
> 
> You might like these:
> 
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs
> 
> I like my 34" widescreen monitor and larger Comfort Curve 2000 keyboard, 
> so a laptop isn't for me.
> 
> 
my monitor is 72 inches long

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659891

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-07-16 01:04 +0000
Message-ID<v74gud$un01$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659867
On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 16:40:44 -0400, Joel wrote:

> I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
> designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now.

Or better still, given some of the greedy noises Arm Ltd have been making, 
RISC-V.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659602

FromDFS <nospam@dfs.com>
Date2024-07-12 11:22 -0400
Message-ID<v6rhoc$3336c$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659540
On 7/11/2024 6:57 PM, Joel wrote:


> This is simply a matter of dominoes falling, ARM will supplant x86,

Definitely not.  It doesn't offer enough advantages over CISC.

Do you remember what you said to me 14.3 years ago?

"You are clueless, dude.  Apple is going to release OS X for other OEMs 
and retail sales - mark my words, it's coming."





> it's over as I said in the Subject line, they will put everything on
> this hardware.  I would never buy another x86 machine, but the one I
> have could probably remain useful for a long time.

Don't get rid of it.  You need to keep it around so I can be proven 
right that Win13 will run just fine on it (you claimed Win12 would be 
the end)


Win8.1 release: Oct 2013
Win10 release:  July 2015
Win11 release:  Oct 2021
Win12 release:  2025 (online speculation)
Win13 release:  2030?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659612

FromJoel <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2024-07-12 12:58 -0400
Message-ID<mvn29j1ssspab2g66aeqdjtmtkh7tkqqnc@4ax.com>
In reply to#659602
DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:

>> This is simply a matter of dominoes falling, ARM will supplant x86,
>
>Definitely not.  It doesn't offer enough advantages over CISC.
>
>Do you remember what you said to me 14.3 years ago?
>
>"You are clueless, dude.  Apple is going to release OS X for other OEMs 
>and retail sales - mark my words, it's coming."


If I really said that, that's funny, although that would've been at
the time I was enthusiastic about OS X.


>> it's over as I said in the Subject line, they will put everything on
>> this hardware.  I would never buy another x86 machine, but the one I
>> have could probably remain useful for a long time.
>
>Don't get rid of it.  You need to keep it around so I can be proven 
>right that Win13 will run just fine on it (you claimed Win12 would be 
>the end)
>
>
>Win8.1 release: Oct 2013
>Win10 release:  July 2015
>Win11 release:  Oct 2021
>Win12 release:  2025 (online speculation)
>Win13 release:  2030?


It's not inconceivable that M$ would support a 10th gen CPU for Win13,
actually.  It would run like crap, though, and 12 might really not be
as good as  11, for that matter.

Either way, Linux is already better than pre-12 release (i.e. 11).

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent.  States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659633

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-07-12 23:01 +0000
Message-ID<v6scjn$37p6h$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659602
On Fri, 12 Jul 2024 11:22:49 -0400, DFS wrote:

> [ARM] doesn't offer enough advantages over CISC.

RISC architectures like ARM and RISC-V offer plenty of advantages, but you 
need native code to take advantage of them. That native code almost 
entirely runs under Linux.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659659

FromJoel <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2024-07-13 12:01 -0400
Message-ID<84959jpsu1k2h3k7q4p5bv7sk3i9htbfp8@4ax.com>
In reply to#659633
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jul 2024 11:22:49 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> [ARM] doesn't offer enough advantages over CISC.
>
>RISC architectures like ARM and RISC-V offer plenty of advantages, but you 
>need native code to take advantage of them. That native code almost 
>entirely runs under Linux.


They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these
devices hitting the market.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent.  States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659668

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-07-13 18:04 +0000
Message-ID<lffttaF8h1fU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#659659
On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:33 -0400, Joel wrote:

> They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these devices
> hitting the market.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview

There will be a ripple effect. Many programs pull in NuGet packages, third 
party software for a particular task. Newtonsoft.jspn, for example, is a 
popular package for working with JSON although Microsoft finally came up 
with System.Text.Json which is arguably better. Of course if your existing 
app uses NewtonSoft switching isn't painless.

I don't know if that example is actually applicable but I'm sure there 
will be stumbling blocks when you realize your favorite package isn't 
available as an ARM binary.

I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while companies 
scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide emulation is good 
enough. I assume the .NET process for Windows on Arm will be similar to 
linux-arm64.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/iot/deployment

There is a win-arm64 RID so maybe you can cross your fingers and hope for 
the best assuming you've scored a suitable test machine.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/rid-catalog


Thankfully, this is not my problem. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659685

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-07-13 23:22 +0000
Message-ID<v6v27s$3povk$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659668
On 13 Jul 2024 18:04:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while companies
> scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide emulation is
> good enough.

Some things won’t run under emulation, as I pointed out elsewhere.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659699

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-07-14 04:20 +0000
Message-ID<lfh201Fdhd3U2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#659685
On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 23:22:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 13 Jul 2024 18:04:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:
> 
>> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while
>> companies scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide
>> emulation is good enough.
> 
> Some things won’t run under emulation, as I pointed out elsewhere.

Absolutely but you are claiming Windows on Arm won't have the apps out of 
the box that will attract developers. Will enough apps run under Prism to 
attract users before native apps are developed? Of 'some apps' means games 
that can't use anti-cheat code is that the market they're even aiming at? 

Typically gamers don't list low power as part of the criteria. I think 
some of them have worked their way up to vapor phase cooling. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659782

FromJoel <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2024-07-14 18:15 -0400
Message-ID<gmi89jli4e3bgi5dlvrqajj8i9peh8hlbb@4ax.com>
In reply to#659699
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 23:22:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On 13 Jul 2024 18:04:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>> 
>>> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while
>>> companies scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide
>>> emulation is good enough.
>> 
>> Some things won’t run under emulation, as I pointed out elsewhere.
>
>Absolutely but you are claiming Windows on Arm won't have the apps out of 
>the box that will attract developers. Will enough apps run under Prism to 
>attract users before native apps are developed? Of 'some apps' means games 
>that can't use anti-cheat code is that the market they're even aiming at? 
>
>Typically gamers don't list low power as part of the criteria. I think 
>some of them have worked their way up to vapor phase cooling. 


We realize that a lot so far, in running software under an ARM CPU and
Windows, has been emulation.  That will quickly evolve.  CISC CPUs can
continue to try to compete all they want, but people even like myself
will see the positives with ARM gear.  And I am nowhere near using a
laptop.  Laptops are the largest installed base of computers better
than a phone.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent.  States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659799

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-07-15 01:46 +0000
Message-ID<v71v21$gomv$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659782
On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 18:15:15 -0400, Joel wrote:

> We realize that a lot so far, in running software under an ARM CPU and
> Windows, has been emulation.  That will quickly evolve.

Assuming Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM takes off. You keep assuming that.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659798

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-07-15 01:46 +0000
Message-ID<v71v11$gomv$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659699
On 14 Jul 2024 04:20:18 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 23:22:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> 
>> On 13 Jul 2024 18:04:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>> 
>>> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while
>>> companies scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide
>>> emulation is good enough.
>> 
>> Some things won’t run under emulation, as I pointed out elsewhere.
> 
> Absolutely but you are claiming Windows on Arm won't have the apps out
> of the box that will attract developers.

To attract users. It is users that attract developers, not the other way 
round.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659731

Fromcandycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
Date2024-07-14 15:30 +0000
Message-ID<slrnv97rh5.5aj.candycanearter07@candydeb.host.invalid>
In reply to#659668
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 18:04 this Saturday (GMT):
> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:33 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these devices
>> hitting the market.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview
>
> There will be a ripple effect. Many programs pull in NuGet packages, third 
> party software for a particular task. Newtonsoft.jspn, for example, is a 
> popular package for working with JSON although Microsoft finally came up 
> with System.Text.Json which is arguably better. Of course if your existing 
> app uses NewtonSoft switching isn't painless.

Wait, MS didn't have native JSON support??

> I don't know if that example is actually applicable but I'm sure there 
> will be stumbling blocks when you realize your favorite package isn't 
> available as an ARM binary.

Especially if you enjoy apps that aren't updated anymore

> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while companies 
> scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide emulation is good 

I'd imagine it wouldn't be seamless, but it seems good as a stopgap.

> enough. I assume the .NET process for Windows on Arm will be similar to 
> linux-arm64.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/iot/deployment
>
> There is a win-arm64 RID so maybe you can cross your fingers and hope for 
> the best assuming you've scored a suitable test machine.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/rid-catalog
>
>
> Thankfully, this is not my problem. 
-- 
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659756

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-07-14 19:36 +0000
Message-ID<lfinluFl1raU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#659731
On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 15:30:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 18:04 this Saturday (GMT):
>> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:33 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these
>>> devices hitting the market.
>>
>> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview
>>
>> There will be a ripple effect. Many programs pull in NuGet packages,
>> third party software for a particular task. Newtonsoft.jspn, for
>> example, is a popular package for working with JSON although Microsoft
>> finally came up with System.Text.Json which is arguably better. Of
>> course if your existing app uses NewtonSoft switching isn't painless.
> 
> Wait, MS didn't have native JSON support??

They did have Json.NET which was cumbersome as tied in with LINQ. That 
goes back to 2006 or so. That was mostly replaced by Newtonsoft.Json 
although ASP.NET still has Json.NET dependencies. System.Text.Json was 
added in .NET Core 3.0, which was separate from .NET Framework 3.1. .NET 
Framework is a dead end at 4.8.2, I think and what is referred to as .NET 
is Core. beginning at .NET 5.  Confused yet? 

Even more confusing James Newton-King was instrumental in all three 
attempts and I thing Newtonsoft was actually a company although he works 
for MS now.

In Microsoft's defense JSON wasn't all that popular in 2006 with XML still 
king of the hill. They also were promoting XAML, a XML derivative. They 
still are since MAUI is XAML based.  They also were/are heavily invested 
in SOAP, which is XML based using WCF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Communication_Foundation

fwiw I and almost everyone else in the world hates WCF. Unfortunately many 
of the interfaces I deal with use SOAP. It took them forever to move from 
the Datamaxx DMPP 2020 protocol and hell will be undergoing global cooling 
before they move to REST.  Government agencies move with the speed of an 
arthritic sloth.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#659800

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-07-15 01:47 +0000
Message-ID<v71v4b$gomv$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#659756
On 14 Jul 2024 19:36:32 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Communication_Foundation
> 
> fwiw I and almost everyone else in the world hates WCF.

s/world/Windows world/

Outside of Windows, nobody has even heard of WCF.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


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